Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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19-01-2014, 05:48 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:
Quote: ALLA SAID: How do you know they lost their faith? how do you know they failed the test by loosing their faith? how could they fail the test if they didn't have an opportunity to fight back? point of the test is to fight and overcome. But when we CAN'T we don't fail anything.
So Alla - your saying when we fail the test we really pass the test because when we "Cant" we don't fail anything.
Alla - please look into something called "the law of contradiction" logic 101

Alla you didn't respond to this because I think you didn't get quite get the contradiction.
Your saying that:
1. There is a test for progression and everybody has opportunity to pass.
2. Those who do not progress and fail the test because they cannot pass the test STILL pass the test.

Fail the test = pass the test
A = Not A
= contradiction
= logic 101

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 06:34 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 09:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  what is the best theistic apologetics you have come across ?

My own, of course, which can be summated thusly: creation, touched by the finger of the creator, vibrates. Thumbsup

Entropy, evolution, and the zer0-sum game "create evil." A rather necessary evil.

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19-01-2014, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 08:01 AM by Chas.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:43 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 01:58 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  These 'evils' and 'enemies' of yours provide the opportunities to grow and 'fight evil/enemies' to begin with, you realise that don't you?
Yes, I do realize that. If there was no Devil(EVIL/ENEMY) it wouldn't be temptations. If there were no temptations Adam wouldn't fall. If Adam didn't fall he would never have eternal progression.
It must be an opposition in all things.

Do you know how someone can progress without overcoming something? I don't.

There was no Adam; your argument fails.

And I urge you to watch this movie and pay close attention.



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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2014, 09:05 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 06:34 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 09:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  what is the best theistic apologetics you have come across ?

My own, of course, which can be summated thusly: creation, touched by the finger of the creator, vibrates. Thumbsup

Entropy, evolution, and the zer0-sum game "create evil." A rather necessary evil.

Yes Cantor - but that not theistic apologetics.
"The natural evils" theodicy challenges a personal loving God. It does not apply to deism or pantheism (like spinozism) or impersonal creation.
Of course Spinoza as an example had no problem with "natural evils" because they were just a necessary Bitch !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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19-01-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  How can you progress without having trials? can you answer this simple question?
Please answer this question. I really want to learn this from you.

Alla,

I sense a slightly circular reasoning here.

You seem to indicate that progression is a good thing and the existence of evil enables our progression.

But what does this progression lead to, what are its main objectives? To understand pain so that we can help the others, the needy, the sick? To sacrifice ourselves for them? To feel compassion?

And why is that a good thing that we protect and help them? Why do they need our help and sacrifice? Why do these people need our compassion?

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19-01-2014, 10:44 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 09:05 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 06:34 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  My own, of course, which can be summated thusly: creation, touched by the finger of the creator, vibrates. Thumbsup

Entropy, evolution, and the zer0-sum game "create evil." A rather necessary evil.

Yes Cantor - but that not theistic apologetics.
"The natural evils" theodicy challenges a personal loving God. It does not apply to deism or pantheism (like spinozism) or impersonal creation.
Of course Spinoza as an example had no problem with "natural evils" because they were just a necessary Bitch !

Well, atheism ain't a thing, so if one were to stick me in a box, that would be taoism, and some call that religion, so... Tongue

And all it would take for those types is to lose the notion that god is good. The only "reason" I see for such insistence is marketing. Their faith is weak. Big Grin

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19-01-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 07:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 02:43 AM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, I do realize that. If there was no Devil(EVIL/ENEMY) it wouldn't be temptations. If there were no temptations Adam wouldn't fall. If Adam didn't fall he would never have eternal progression.
It must be an opposition in all things.

Do you know how someone can progress without overcoming something? I don't.

There was no Adam; your argument fails.

And I urge you to watch this movie and pay close attention.



WOW Chaos - I have heard about the "God on trial" but just watched it and is quite powerful & disturbing !

I can recall myself as morphing between the various characters, probably today as a mixture of the university professor, physicist & the guy who keeps interrupting the court. However I recall living a life with the responses of the Rabbi & religious Jewish father. It would be interesting what effect the movie would have had if I watched it 14 years ago when religious or 6 years ago when wavering on the edge ?
God is guilty ! Breach of contract !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 10:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 09:05 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Yes Cantor - but that not theistic apologetics.
"The natural evils" theodicy challenges a personal loving God. It does not apply to deism or pantheism (like spinozism) or impersonal creation.
Of course Spinoza as an example had no problem with "natural evils" because they were just a necessary Bitch !

Well, atheism ain't a thing, so if one were to stick me in a box, that would be taoism, and some call that religion, so... Tongue

And all it would take for those types is to lose the notion that god is good. The only "reason" I see for such insistence is marketing. Their faith is weak. Big Grin

I agree with you - but like the movie "God on trial"
Quote:- "what use is an impersonal God ? Its like the weather. "

We don't "pray, praise or worship the weather" it just is. We have to learn how to deal with it, build shelters, flood barriers, prediction methods and face the consequences when we fail. On a good day we go to the beech and have a barbeque.
I don't have a problem with that ! Its just facing reality as it is.
I see the Taoists just applying some wisdom with how to deal with the weather.

Quote:Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.
Lao Tzu

Quote:If you realize that all things change, there is nothing you will try to hold on to. If you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve.
Lao Tzu

Quote:I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any.
Lao Tzu

Quote:Nature is not human hearted.
Lao Tzu

Some quite reasonable wisdom.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 01:41 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 05:48 AM)Baruch Wrote:  [quote]So Alla - your saying when we fail the test we really pass the test because when we "Cant" we don't fail anything.
Alla - please look into something called "the law of contradiction" logic 101

sorry

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 01:47 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 05:48 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Alla you didn't respond to this because I think you didn't get quite get the contradiction.
Your saying that:
1. There is a test for progression and everybody has opportunity to pass.
2. Those who do not progress and fail the test because they cannot pass the test STILL pass the test.

Fail the test = pass the test
A = Not A
= contradiction
= logic 101
[/quote]
What you said is right and I see the contradiction. Nobody can cheat Formal Logic.
I didn't say that everybody has an opportunity to PASS the test. But everybody has an opportunity to HAVE trials. The whole life is the test with many, many trials.
What do we have to do in order to pass the test? We just have to fight according to our ABILITY. We just have to do all we CAN. That's all. We don't have to win, we don't have to overcome. But we have to TRY to DO all that we CAN. We have to do our BEST.
When we do this we pass the test.
To pass the test is also means what we BECOME during and after trial. And what we become also depends on our capacities and on knowledge and understanding of things.

Let me give you some examples. Let's say in order to pass the test I have to keep God's laws in this life. Does it mean that I have to keep them all perfectly? The answer is no because God knows that I am not capable of doing it. But God knows that I can always DO my BEST. When I do my best or all that I CAN, then I pass the test.
Now, let's say one bad guy kidnapped me and kept me as his prisoner and
took away from me my freedom. Then I can not do what I choose. Then I can not keep God's laws the way I could when I was free person. Will God require from me to do what I CAN'T do? The answer is "No".
But can I grow in this situation? I believe I can. I can TRY continue to be who I am. I can do my best.
Is it possible that I will loose my faith in God? Yes, it is possible.
Did I fail the test? Not necessary. What if I loose my faith in this kind of situation because I reached the point that it is ABOVE my ABILITY to have faith?
Will God require me to do what is above my ABILITY? The answer is no.
Wouldn't you understand me? Would you have a compassion for me?
If your answer is yes and you are not perfect man then wouldn't God Who claims to be Justice and Mercy and Who claims to be perfect understand me and have compassion for me?

So, when all those people loose their faith I can not tell you why they lost it.
I can not have this kind of judgment.
It could be because they failed and didn't even try to do their best or it could be because they reached the point when it is above their ability.
Do you still see a contradiction?

English is not my native language.
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