Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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19-01-2014, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 02:09 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  He wants you do to this first.
Well Screw him! he doesn't help humanity why the hell should we care about his will ?? he's not humanity's dictator.
Quote:Food is here on Earth. Adults are here on Earth.
Yeah but you see the nutrition won't magically just travel to their bodies you know ? They NEED a house to live and an employment/job and other animals just don't have the intelligence to get out of the wild.. so its just God's design fault.
Quote: Or we can blame ourselves for this first.
Why should we ? its not like we HAVE the omnipotence to help everyone.
Quote:Why? Because Jesus did it.
I Don't CARE ABOUT JESUS.
Quote:That is why you, I and all those poor children will live again
That's is Cinderella nonsense Get real!Dodgy
Quote:By not breaking even one law of God.
Again I don't really think ANYONE has authority over humanity or my soul.. so God can just screw himself and his invisible laws.
Quote:Nothing. These kind of trials are not required to learn something and to progress.
You're still insisting like this is some sort of "Trial" or a "Test" ? please don't...
Quote:I am from the same world as you are and I know what it means to suffer.
No you don't know how it feels like losing your parents when you were just 5 or did you lose your father in a war ? these are types of sufferings cannot be empathized and they are not "Redeemable"
Quote:have you ever had a surgery (appendicitis) without anesthesia? I did.
No i but i sure live in a 3rd world country you'd have to really come and live here to empathize with me.
Quote:A child can see nurse that makes shots as an evil person who condones suffering. But nurse knows that it is necessary to suffer now.
Actually that's a horrible analogy.. i just hope you never say this sort of stuff to Rape victims and people suffering from PTSD Confused
Quote:But that is not what I was talking about.
No that's exactly what you're talking about... you're saying that the non-existent nansy-pansy afterlife somehow justifies all the unnecessary suffering.
Quote:no.
Er.. YES actually yes we have WORLD hunger.. and all the animals too live under constant survival stress its not just humans..
Quote:If we have poor and hungry it is our fault.
Its still under "God's Plan/PROGRESS" God has all the omnipotence to change things as they are but he refuses to do so because well.. HE DOESN'T EXIST!
Quote:fault of those who have powerful but use it in evil way.
That's your God.. thankfully he's just imaginary.
Quote:fault of those who don't care about others.
You're only insulting your own "All power/loving" God who couldn't make himself care for the weak.
Quote:it is evil that we(humans) create when we use our moral agency.
No we do not create anything.. poverty exists because not every country is thriving with industrial revolution and democracy.
Quote:we are subjects to natural laws.
STOP PARROTING THIS NONSENSE! every proton that exists in this world is subject to natural laws..

BUT You insist that there is a "CREATOR" to life..

SO if God created life he should've created babies with a little more immunity and protection! that's a serious DESIGN FLAW.. if there is a "Designer" to life.

WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR GOD DOING ANYWAY ? PLAYING COSMIC POKER ??
Quote:the same thing. We are responsible for all this.
We didn't kill the dinosaurs ! they were killed by a meteor or ice age.

Oh really ? I thought your God was a good.. i'm sorry if your God isn't morally obliged to help the ones the need he can take this[Image: www.pc-surgeon.net_images_cforum_smileys...finger.gif] AND SHOVE IT UP HARD! as far humanity is concerned it isn't morally obliged to respect such an impotent God.
Quote:AIDS. How do children get AIDS?
From their parents of course.
Quote:How can you progress without having trials? can you answer this simple question?
By worshiping the Devil who promises to free us from World hunger and all the evils of humanity.Drinking Beverage

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-01-2014, 02:09 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 10:08 AM)viole Wrote:  Alla,
I sense a slightly circular reasoning here.
You seem to indicate that progression is a good thing and the existence of evil enables our progression.
Yes. I believe that progression(it is when we become better and stronger) is a good thing. And to progress very often means to overcome something like for example laziness or selfishness (let's call it evil)

(19-01-2014 10:08 AM)viole Wrote:  But what does this progression lead to, what are its main objectives? To understand pain so that we can help the others, the needy, the sick? To sacrifice ourselves for them? To feel compassion?

It leads to eternal happiness. More progress = more happiness.
Main objective is to become like Gods and to have what They have and to do what They do and to have joy thereof.
But we have to earn it. If we can not progress in this life we definitely can not progress as Gods.

(19-01-2014 10:08 AM)viole Wrote:  And why is that a good thing that we protect and help them? Why do they need our help and sacrifice? Why do these people need our compassion?

Ciao

- viole
So that they can learn from us and have an opportunity to progress themselves and do what we do and have joy. They are pour brothers and sisters. We are all one big family. And if leave them behind we are not worthy to be Gods/Perfect.
To bring joy to others = have more joy yourself.
As the Scripture(Book of Mormon) says: "Adam fell that man might be. And men are that they might have joy."

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 02:39 PM by viole.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  It leads to eternal happiness. More progress = more happiness.

Well, but sooner or later this happiness might stop. Running out of people needing help, I guess. No more progression possible.

Is evil the only fuel of happiness? Could we reach this level of happiness without evil in the world? If not, what are we going to do in Heaven? Feel not happy?

Don't you think, this is a bit selfish? Oh, look at that child whose eyeball is being eaten from the inside out by a parasite. Cool, I can help him, reach my progression target for this week and feel happy.

So, you are a Mormon. I am at a loss here, since the only thing I know about mormonism involves multiple wives, magic underwear and no Vodka. Thrilled to learn more about it.

Ciao

- viole
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19-01-2014, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 02:42 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:He wants you do to this first.
Well Screw him! he doesn't help humanity why the hell should we care about his will ?? he's not humanity's dictator.
Exactly, He is not humanity's dictator and this is why He is not forcing us to do good. We have to choose to do good. When we choose to do good then we have PERSONAL PROGRESS

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Food is here on Earth. Adults are here on Earth.
Yeah but you see the nutrition won't magically just travel to their bodies you know ? They NEED a house to live and an employment/job and other animals just don't have the intelligence to get out of the wild.. so its just God's design fault.

Yes, but He also sent you here. So you can help them. He sent here people who have power and money so they can do all they can to help. This way strong and wealthy can have personal progress by helping weak and poor. And then poor and weak can become more wealthy and more strong and also have more opportunities for personal progress. And this way ALL people can have MORE JOY.
You see, God gives us instructions how to be more happy and how to have better personal progress and then He let us TO GOVERN OURSELVES.

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  I am from the same world as you are and I know what it means to suffer.
No you don't know how it feels like losing your parents when you were just 5 or did you lose your father in a war ? these are types of sufferings cannot be empathized and they are not "Redeemable"
I believe that they are redeemable. I believe it will happen one day - many things will be restored.

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  No i but i sure live in a 3rd world country you'd have to really come and live here to empathize with me.
So we both know what suffering is. What do you DO with this KNOWLEDGE?

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  BUT You insist that there is a "CREATOR" to life..
SO if God created life he should've created babies with a little more immunity and protection! that's a serious DESIGN FLAW.. if there is a "Designer" to life.
May be He shouldn't. I don't know.
But I do know WHY I/we need trials.

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR GOD DOING ANYWAY ? PLAYING COSMIC POKER ??
He is preparing this Earth to His coming. And I am sure He does many other things. May be He is creating new earths now for more of His children.

(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  We didn't kill the dinosaurs ! they were killed by a meteor or ice age.
Sure. But I didn't talk about dinosaurs. Nobody blames you for this by the way.Smile


(19-01-2014 01:45 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  How can you progress without having trials? can you answer this simple question?
By worshiping the Devil who promises to free us from World hunger and all the evils of humanity.Drinking Beverage
I see, you don't know the answer to this simple question.
So I can repeat: you progress by having trials.
This is PERFECT design: no evil - no trials. No trials - no progress.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 02:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  It leads to eternal happiness. More progress = more happiness.
Well, but sooner or later this happiness might stop. Running out of people needing help, I guess. No more progression possible.
It will never happen. There was no time when there were not this kind of people and it will be no such time ever.

(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  Is evil the only fuel of happiness?
no. It is necessary for each of us to experience evil only for a certain amount of time(this life) and in a certain place (this earth)

(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  Could we reach this level of happiness without evil in the world? If not, what are we going to do in Heaven? Feel not happy?
Without experiencing evil we can not have certain progression. When we get to Heaven/when we progress to our exaltation we will have happiness we never experienced here. Heaven has new experiences and endless opportunities to do good and to help others/those who didn't reach our level yet.
Helping others always brings joy.

(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  Don't you think, this is a bit selfish? Oh, look at that child whose eyeball is being eaten from the inside out by a parasite. Cool, I can help him, reach my progression target for this week and feel happy.
Selfish is if you wish someone to suffer in order for you to progress.
Hypocrisy if you want to do the right thing in order to have some reward. We have to help unconditionally without thinking about rewards. But if reward comes it brings us joy.

(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  So, you are a Mormon. I am at a loss here, since the only thing I know about mormonism involves multiple wives, magic underwear and no Vodka.
Smile


(19-01-2014 02:32 PM)viole Wrote:  Thrilled to learn more about it.

Ciao

- viole

OK

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19-01-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  no. It is necessary for each of us to experience evil only for a certain amount of time(this life) and in a certain place (this earth)

Ok, but what about all the children who died before experiencing anything? If they go to Heaven, as you seem to indicate, I don't see the point for the others to experience evil and go through all this hassle. Are those children to be envied?

By the way, what is the Mormon version of hell?

Ciao

- viole
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19-01-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:07 PM)viole Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 02:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  no. It is necessary for each of us to experience evil only for a certain amount of time(this life) and in a certain place (this earth)

Ok, but what about all the children who died before experiencing anything? If they go to Heaven, as you seem to indicate, I don't see the point for the others to experience evil and go through all this hassle. Are those children to be envied?
We come here on earth for two reasons:
1)to obtain physical bodies. Physical bodies are very important for personal progress.
2)to be tested.
Little children will be resurrected in bodies(age) they died. During the Millennium they will have an opportunity to grow and learn but in the end of the Millennium Satan will be allowed to have power again. This will be an opportunity to be tested.
All people including those little children are waiting for their resurrection in spirit world.


(19-01-2014 03:07 PM)viole Wrote:  By the way, what is the Mormon version of hell?

Ciao

- viole
there are two meaning of hell:
1)place or outer darkness where all sons of perdition will be
2)emotional suffering. By the way here on earth we experience hell when we suffer. We may experience hell (emotional suffering) in spirit world while we wait for resurrection.
Who are the sons of perdition who will be in outer darkness?
They are Lucifer/Devil, his demons(evil spirits) and those who sinned against the Holy Ghost.

All people after resurrection(salvation) will stand before God and will be judged according to their works. People will have different degrees of the glory.
Judgment will be Fair and Merciful.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:07 PM)viole Wrote:  [quote='Alla' pid='471275' dateline='1390165030']

no. It is necessary for each of us to experience evil only for a certain amount of time(this life) and in a certain place (this earth)

Alla - you have refuted yourself again because you said previously you believed in eternal progression which means evil has to continue for eternity with eternal tests.
However now you say evil is only for a certain amount of time on this earth - so how do you expect to keep progressing eternally ?

In any case eternal progression doesn't make sense because there cannot be a goal or aim which is ever reached - no one can ever become perfect, or pure or complete.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:Alla: Little children will be resurrected in bodies(age) they died.

Whats the point of being resurrected as a 2 year old ?
They have to be eternal as 2 years old ?
Is this a nightmare ?Sadcryface2SadcryfaceSadcryface

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 03:07 PM)viole Wrote:  Ok, but what about all the children who died before experiencing anything? If they go to Heaven, as you seem to indicate, I don't see the point for the others to experience evil and go through all this hassle. Are those children to be envied?
We come here on earth for two reasons:
1)to obtain physical bodies. Physical bodies are very important for personal progress.
2)to be tested.
Little children will be resurrected in bodies(age) they died. During the Millennium they will have an opportunity to grow and learn but in the end of the Millennium Satan will be allowed to have power again. This will be an opportunity to be tested.
All people including those little children are waiting for their resurrection in spirit world.


(19-01-2014 03:07 PM)viole Wrote:  By the way, what is the Mormon version of hell?

Ciao

- viole
there are two meaning of hell:
1)place or outer darkness where all sons of perdition will be
2)emotional suffering. By the way here on earth we experience hell when we suffer. We may experience hell (emotional suffering) in spirit world while we wait for resurrection.
Who are the sons of perdition who will be in outer darkness?
They are Lucifer/Devil, his demons(evil spirits) and those who sinned against the Holy Ghost.

All people after resurrection(salvation) will stand before God and will be judged according to their works. People will have different degrees of the glory.
Judgment will be Fair and Merciful.

You know that somebody just made this shit up, don't you? There's no evidence of any of this.

Why would you believe it?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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