Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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19-01-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:viole
Ok, but what about all the children who died before experiencing anything? If they go to Heaven, as you seem to indicate, I don't see the point for the others to experience evil and go through all this hassle. Are those children to be envied?
Ciao

- viole

On the contrary viole these children who experienced very little, if they go to heaven are severely limited - kind of spiritually handicapped according to Alla system - this is because they hardly had any tests and didn't do much progressing in their brief period of time on the Earth. They have done little (hardly any if any tests) and consequently deserve little.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-01-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  We come here on earth for two reasons:
1)to obtain physical bodies. Physical bodies are very important for personal progress.

Ergo, we will be strongly limited in our progression when we become spiritual, whatever that means.

Quote:2)to be tested.
Little children will be resurrected in bodies(age) they died. During the Millennium they will have an opportunity to grow and learn but in the end of the Millennium Satan will be allowed to have power again. This will be an opportunity to be tested.
All people including those little children are waiting for their resurrection in spirit world.

I wonder what they do while waiting....

So, we may have children resurrected in the form of a couple of weeks old embryos. Good, I will take a note of that.

Do you think they will be able to survive without any help? Or will they fizzle again into the spiritual world?

And what is the Millenium? A thousands years? So, are they growing (somehow, without intensive stations) until at the end of this thousands years they will be tested, when Satan gets in charge again?

This is a bit confusing. I wonder what happens if Satans does not play along, just to be particularly nasty, LOL.


Quote:there are two meaning of hell:
1)place or outer darkness where all sons of perdition will be

So, if i were a born blind daughter of perdition, that would not be so bad, would it?

Quote:2) Emotional suffering. By the way here on earth we experience hell when we suffer. We may experience hell (emotional suffering) in spirit world while we wait for resurrection.
Who are the sons of perdition who will be in outer darkness?

I surely hope the Millenium comes soon after my death. I hate to wait in the spiritual realm. Unless, we can have spiritual Martinis, in the meantime Smile

So, what happens after we resurrect?

Quote:They are Lucifer/Devil, his demons(evil spirits) and those who sinned against the Holy Ghost.

How can you sin against the Holy Spirit? Just in case I do it without noticing.

Quote:All people after resurrection(salvation) will stand before God and will be judged according to their works. People will have different degrees of the glory.
Judgment will be Fair and Merciful.

Different degrees? Some will get a whole planet while others will just get a tiny little island? What is the worst that can happen to me?

But what about the magic underwear. I always found it intriguing. What is that exactly?

Ciao

- viole
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19-01-2014, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 04:37 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, but He also sent you here. So you can help them.
We can't help them.. we can't help anything we're NOT omnipotent like God.
God is not limited like us. The more that a person has the knowledge and the ability (or power) to alleviate suffering, then the more that person is morally obligated to help by intervening.
Quote:He sent here people who have power and money
God has sent no one to help us.
Quote:You see, God gives us instructions
Which God ? Allah? Thor? Zeus? Vishnu? Jehovah? so many options!
Quote:I believe that they are redeemable.
Good enjoy your delusion.Thumbsup reality says otherwise.
If God can justify letting us suffer in this life by compensating us in the next life, then that ethical principle allows us to do the same thing

We can knowingly allow people to suffer even though we could help them, so long as we compensate them afterward for our inaction.

So yeah its just like giving an ice cream to a kid who lost his mom.. pretty much.
Quote:I believe it will happen one day
This is just wishful thinking.. yearning for something doesn't necessarily make it true especially when there is evidence to the contrary.
Quote:What do you DO with this KNOWLEDGE?
That we only get to live once and we shouldn't waste our lives believing in false&unsubstantiated propositions that our lives have some sort of divine purpose WHEN it clearly doesn't.
Quote:May be He shouldn't. I don't know.
Maybe God doesn't exist ? just mabye.Unsure
Quote:He is preparing this Earth to His coming.
Why the hell does he need to come here ? God knows the future and he's omnipresent so therefore he already is here!
Quote:And I am sure He does many other things. May be He is creating new earths now for more of His children.
Why do you believe in something that you have absolutely no clue about ??
Quote:So I can repeat: you progress by having trials.
This is PERFECT design: no evil - no trials. No trials - no progress.
Progress is redundant when you have what you need!

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-01-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  Ergo, we will be strongly limited in our progression when we become spiritual, whatever that means.
I am not sure what you mean. But I think I should say this. That spirits without physical bodies are limited in their progression. That us why it is important for spirits to have physical bodies like those who are already exalted have physical bodies. God Heavenly Father and God Son have exalted physical bodies.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  I wonder what they do while waiting....
I don't know. Oh I know only this: Some spirits do missionary work, some spirits stay in spirit prison. They do lot's of things that we have no idea about.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  So, we may have children resurrected in the form of a couple of weeks old embryos. Good, I will take a note of that.
We don't know that. We don't know when exactly spirit enters physical body: at birth or earlier. Only body that once had spirit can be resurrected.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  Do you think they will be able to survive without any help? Or will they fizzle again into the spiritual world?
I think people who will live on earth during Millennium will take of them.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  And what is the Millenium? A thousands years?
Yes. This is very important time. We need this time to do very important work.



(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  So, are they growing (somehow, without intensive stations) until at the end of this thousands years they will be tested, when Satan gets in charge again?
Yes, they will grow somehow, learn, have good times and at the end of the Millennium they will be tested.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  This is a bit confusing. I wonder what happens if Satans does not play along, just to be particularly nasty, LOL.
I believe he will. He is so fallen he can't stop himself from doing evil.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  So, if i were a born blind daughter of perdition, that would not be so bad, would it?
Smile Probably. Besides that it is dark I think it is horrible in some other ways. There is no progression, there is no happiness in that dark cold place.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  I surely hope the Millenium comes soon after my death. I hate to wait in the spiritual realm. Unless, we can have spiritual Martinis, in the meantime Smile
Smile Yes, no Martinis in spirit world. Spirits can not drink or eat, or smell, or touch, or have children. I know it sucks. That is why it is very important in this life to learn to control our addictions.
But when we get resurrected we will enjoy many things, may be even some heavenly Martinis.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  So, what happens after we resurrect?
Judgment Day and then everybody will live in the place God prepared for them according to their works.




(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  How can you sin against the Holy Spirit? Just in case I do it without noticing.
Don't worry you are not going to do this.
Unless God Holy Ghost gives you a revelation, you will learn the truth from Him and you will have testimony of Christ but then for some reason you will deny this testimony(the truth) and start to persecute Church of God.
To deny the testimony from the Holy Ghost is a sin against the Holy Ghost.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  Different degrees? Some will get a whole planet while others will just get a tiny little island? What is the worst that can happen to me?
the worst that can happen to you:
Joseph Smith so a vision of the lowest degree and he said that if we imagine the most beautiful place on earth right now we can see the lowest degree of glory of God's Kingdom.

(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  But what about the magic underwear. I always found it intriguing. What is that exactly?
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/temple-garments

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  You know that somebody just made this shit up, don't you? There's no evidence of any of this.

Why would you believe it?
I have my reasons. But I don't want to share them with you. Not because I don't like you or that I think badly about you I just don't feel like to share it with you.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:44 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Alla - you have refuted yourself again because you said previously you believed in eternal progression which means evil has to continue for eternity with eternal tests.
However now you say evil is only for a certain amount of time on this earth - so how do you expect to keep progressing eternally ?
When we become exalted we are not subject to evil any more. Now we can have different level of progression. It is progression of the glory. And I can explain what it is if you wish to know.
But evil will always exist that those who come after us will have an opportunity to experience what we experience now.
Even now there are many earths like our earth with people like us who go through the same things we go through.
And there were many earths before.


(19-01-2014 03:44 PM)Baruch Wrote:  In any case eternal progression doesn't make sense because there cannot be a goal or aim which is ever reached - no one can ever become perfect, or pure or complete.
I agree with this. But eternal progression/progression of Gods or eternal life means to progress in the glory and it doesn't mean to go on perfection like we do now. Now we are learning to be as perfect as possible(progression). When you become God you become absolutely perfect being.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 06:21 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 07:09 PM by viole.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 05:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 04:17 PM)viole Wrote:  This is a bit confusing. I wonder what happens if Satans does not play along, just to be particularly nasty, LOL.
I believe he will. He is so fallen he can't stop himself from doing evil.

Yes, and what could be more evil than messing up God's cosmic plan? This is the first thing I would do, if I were really evil and able to read prophecies and holy scriptures.

Imagine the scene: millions, billions of spiritual souls stranded. God, Jesus and Joseph Smith, on the PA: We are sorry, we cannot dispatch you to your next destination. Satan is on vacation for the next millions of trillion of years and because of that we cannot really test you.

I wonder if they would offer a drink for this particular inconvenience, LOL.

Alla, you seem to be a nice and good hearted girl with some glimpses of rationality. I have to ask the same question Chas asked: how can you believe any of this made up nonsense?

What is it, Alla, what is it? Did some rich polygamist from Utah promise you a better life than in Ukraine?

If that is the case, let me know. I will stop bothering you at once.

Ciao

- viole
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20-01-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
I'm still pretty much waiting for an answer. I hope you're not ignoring me, Alla.

In any case, here's my post again:

Quote:Well, I was talking in general. I can give this answer to any argument and get away with it.
In this discussion we are not interested in what people believe. If you want to make a point, you have to use arguments and not just say "oh well, it's true because I believe it to be".

If you don't believe my opinion to be true, explain why, because I presented an argument that you are refusing to address.

If suffering is needed to overcome suffering, God can simply take suffering out of the equation and all problems are solved. If there is no suffering to overcome, then no suffering is needed as a trial.

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20-01-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 05:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 03:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  You know that somebody just made this shit up, don't you? There's no evidence of any of this.

Why would you believe it?
I have my reasons. But I don't want to share them with you. Not because I don't like you or that I think badly about you I just don't feel like to share it with you.

Because you know they are bullshit.





Why the fuck doesn't this forum have a "no proselytizing" rule?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-01-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 05:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 03:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  You know that somebody just made this shit up, don't you? There's no evidence of any of this.

Why would you believe it?
I have my reasons. But I don't want to share them with you. Not because I don't like you or that I think badly about you I just don't feel like to share it with you.

Why is it always the case that the answers to the most important questions asked are not honestly given? If I believed something in my heart was true, I would not have a problem listing any reasons that support my choice. WTF? We are all asking why we should respect your beliefs, so let us know why?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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