Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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22-01-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(22-01-2014 03:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He can stop rapist. But how can He do it? By taking away from the rapist his moral agency.
This is what I know: God can not take moral agency from people. If He does it He can not be God any more. He will become falling angel or devil.
We all were promised to have our moral agency. It was part of the covenant God made with us. Gods do not break covenants, mortal humans do.


Bullshit.

Moral agency? Are you fucking kidding me, you're pulling out that retarded tripe?

How can your god lack the power to interfere with 'moral agency'? So he cannot, or will not? Does this mean that your gods are subservient to the 'moral agency' of man?

Well then, how could we ever send people to jail? If we send someone to jail for attempted murder, well now we are just interfering with their moral agency! For fuck's sake Alla, do you think at all about the shit you post before you regurgitate your bullshit boiler-plate apologetic claptrap onto the forums?

How does stopping one's actions take away one's moral agency? You gods could be the perfect police officers if they fucking tried. Your gods can read minds, knows with absolute certainty the truth or falsehood of any individual or situation, and has the power to interfere and stop all crimes everywhere for all time before they happen. If your gods can and will condemn us for unbelief, which is thought crime, why doesn't he intervene whenever he knows that someone has already made up their minds to commit murder or rape? It's just another form of thought crime, is it not? They decided they were going to commit the crime, how are they loosing moral agency by being stopped if god can be absolutely sure of the contents of their thoughts?

Someone could decided to murder another with a gun, and the gods could intervene to turn the bullets into harmless popcorn if they wanted, and this would not interfere with the murder's 'moral agency'. Also, if the criminals are not stopped, then their crimes are interfering with the 'moral agency' of their victims! Your bullshit argument makes no sense even on it's own terms, that's how fucking stupid and infantile it is.

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23-01-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(22-01-2014 11:12 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  [Image: 45136364.jpg]
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Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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23-01-2014, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 09:17 AM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
I write this post because I want to give answers to the questions I was asked. If there were no questions I would never write the following(answers).
(22-01-2014 07:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(22-01-2014 03:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He can stop rapist. But how can He do it?
BY making it biologically impossible for anyone to rape or perhaps any bad thing for that matter ?
What has to be changed in order for someone not to want to have a desire to rape or to have desire to do any bad thing?

(22-01-2014 07:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Again this all boils down to why evil exists and why God created it in the first place.
I will address second part first. God didn't create evil. Evil always existed. It existed even before our God/Gods became God/Gods.
Why do evil always exist? And why do good always exist? Because it must be an opposition in all things. When there is no an opposition then intelligent being(man) can not act for himself/herself. Intelligent being(man) has to be enticed by the one(good) or another(evil).
If there is only good man is FORCED to do only good. When there is only evil man is FORCED to do only evil.
When there is an opposition man can MAKE A CHOICE on his/her own and is NOT forced.

(22-01-2014 07:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  the rapist's right to rape and the murderer's right to murder must be preserved ? wtf ? Shocking

Rapist doesn't have a right to rape. But he has his right to moral agency.
I don't have a right to break my countrie's laws but nobody takes away from me an opportunity to act on my own. I have an opportunity to break any law I want to. Nobody physically forces me to obey my country's laws.

(22-01-2014 07:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I don't care about covenants! If God isn't morally obliged to stop evil from existing then he IS EVIL and i'm not morally obliged to call this pompous virtually non-existent being as "God".
What you said makes lots of sense IF there is no knowledge that God never created evil in the first place and when there is knowledge about the reason WHY it must be an opposition in all things.

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23-01-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(22-01-2014 03:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He can stop rapist. But how can He do it? By taking away from the rapist his moral agency.
This is what I know: God can not take moral agency from people. If He does it He can not be God any more. He will become falling angel or devil.
We all were promised to have our moral agency. It was part of the covenant God made with us. Gods do not break covenants, mortal humans do.

So what exactly was God doing in Exodus when he "hardened the Pharaoh's heart" several times?

Exodus 9-11:
Quote:Exodus 9:

The Plague on Livestock

1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: “Let my people go, so that they may worship me.” 2 If you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them back, 3 the hand of the Lord will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field—on your horses, donkeys and camels and on your cattle, sheep and goats. 4 But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and that of Egypt, so that no animal belonging to the Israelites will die.’”

5 The Lord set a time and said, “Tomorrow the Lord will do this in the land.” 6 And the next day the Lord did it: All the livestock of the Egyptians died, but not one animal belonging to the Israelites died. 7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.


The Plague of Boils

8 Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Take handfuls of soot from a furnace and have Moses toss it into the air in the presence of Pharaoh. 9 It will become fine dust over the whole land of Egypt, and festering boils will break out on people and animals throughout the land.”

10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on people and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.


The Plague of Hail

13 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up[a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every person and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.’”

20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the Lord hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the Lord left their slaves and livestock in the field.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt—on people and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt.” 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the Lord sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields—both people and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. 26 The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.

27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. “This time I have sinned,” he said to them. “The Lord is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. 28 Pray to the Lord, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don’t have to stay any longer.”

29 Moses replied, “When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the Lord. The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the Lord’s. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the Lord God.”

31 (The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed and the flax was in bloom. 32 The wheat and spelt, however, were not destroyed, because they ripen later.)

33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the Lord; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said through Moses.


Exodus 10:

The Plague of Locusts

1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.”

3 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, “This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me. 4 If you refuse to let them go, I will bring locusts into your country tomorrow. 5 They will cover the face of the ground so that it cannot be seen. They will devour what little you have left after the hail, including every tree that is growing in your fields. 6 They will fill your houses and those of all your officials and all the Egyptians—something neither your parents nor your ancestors have ever seen from the day they settled in this land till now.’” Then Moses turned and left Pharaoh.

7 Pharaoh’s officials said to him, “How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship the Lord their God. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?”

8 Then Moses and Aaron were brought back to Pharaoh. “Go, worship the Lord your God,” he said. “But tell me who will be going.”

9 Moses answered, “We will go with our young and our old, with our sons and our daughters, and with our flocks and herds, because we are to celebrate a festival to the Lord.”

10 Pharaoh said, “The Lord be with you—if I let you go, along with your women and children! Clearly you are bent on evil.[a] 11 No! Have only the men go and worship the Lord, since that’s what you have been asking for.” Then Moses and Aaron were driven out of Pharaoh’s presence.

12 And the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over Egypt so that locusts swarm over the land and devour everything growing in the fields, everything left by the hail.”

13 So Moses stretched out his staff over Egypt, and the Lord made an east wind blow across the land all that day and all that night. By morning the wind had brought the locusts; 14 they invaded all Egypt and settled down in every area of the country in great numbers. Never before had there been such a plague of locusts, nor will there ever be again. 15 They covered all the ground until it was black. They devoured all that was left after the hail—everything growing in the fields and the fruit on the trees. Nothing green remained on tree or plant in all the land of Egypt.

16 Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, “I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. 17 Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me.”

18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the Lord. 19 And the Lord changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.


[b]The Plague of Darkness


21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness spreads over Egypt—darkness that can be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three days. 23 No one could see anyone else or move about for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.

24 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and said, “Go, worship the Lord. Even your women and children may go with you; only leave your flocks and herds behind.”

25 But Moses said, “You must allow us to have sacrifices and burnt offerings to present to the Lord our God. 26 Our livestock too must go with us; not a hoof is to be left behind. We have to use some of them in worshiping the Lord our God, and until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship the Lord.”

27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, “Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die.”

29 “Just as you say,” Moses replied. “I will never appear before you again.”


Exodus 11:

The Plague on the Firstborn

1 Now the Lord had said to Moses, “I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. 2 Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold.” 3 (The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh’s officials and by the people.)

4 So Moses said, “This is what the Lord says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any person or animal.’ Then you will know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. 8 All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave.” Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.

9 The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.” 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.


Excerpts: (emphasis mine)

Exodus 9:7 Wrote:7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

So, his "heart" being "unwielding" explains his decision not to let the people go.


Exodus 9:12 Wrote:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

So, after the plague, God makes Pharaoh change his mind, violating his moral agency (so he can inflict more plagues!).


Exodus 10:1 Wrote:Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

This is the real cincher. God flat out admits that he is the agent hardening the Pharaoh's heart for the explicit purpose of being able to visit more plagues upon them.


Exodus 10:20 Wrote:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

He did it again.


Exodus 10:27 Wrote:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

And again, seven verses later.


Exodus 11:10 Wrote:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

And here's the last separate reference to God violating Pharaoh's moral autonomy.


Seriously. God goes out of his way to rob Pharaoh of his decision-making ability so he can torture the Egyptians, and eventually kill their first-born (many of whom wouldn't have been directly involved in the slavery, while sparing many who were!). So there you have it. The Bible explicitly states that God can and does rob people of their moral agency when he feels like torturing and killing some fools.
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23-01-2014, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 01:12 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 10:08 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(22-01-2014 03:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, He can stop rapist. But how can He do it? By taking away from the rapist his moral agency.
This is what I know: God can not take moral agency from people. If He does it He can not be God any more. He will become falling angel or devil.
We all were promised to have our moral agency. It was part of the covenant God made with us. Gods do not break covenants, mortal humans do.

So what exactly was God doing in Exodus when he "hardened the Pharaoh's heart" several times?
It is wrong translation. Correct translation is this:" but Pharaoh hardened his heart."
In my personal opinion it doesn't make sense that God would hardened Pharaoh's heart and then would punish him for hardened heart.
Pharaoh hardened his heart and this would become an obstacle for God's plan. Nothing and nobody can stop God from doing something important.
God gave me moral agency. I may choose to do evil. I can become an obstacle for your good plans if I choose so. But if my actions will be an obstacle to His plan He will stop me. Nobody can stop God's work/plans.
But He is fair. Before He stops from doing evil He gives warning - an opportunity to change mind.

English is not my native language.
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23-01-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 01:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is wrong translation. Correct translation is this:" but Pharaoh hardened his heart."

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23-01-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 09:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  What has to be changed in order for someone not to want to have a desire to rape or to have desire to do any bad thing?
Well.. that's what an All powerful God is for isn't he ?? God should be able to correct Humanity

God should genetically engineer humans to be kind&loving by default... and make it harder and harder for us to do bad things to each other and the planet in general.

something like clockwork orange's "treatment" comes to mind but i'd say if a rapist or a murderer suddenly starts shivering and gasping for air he would certainly try NOT to be bad and in that process no one is getting hurt.
Quote:God didn't create evil. Evil always existed.
Well.... actually "Evil" is a relative term,it cannot exist unless viewed from a certain context..

And "evil" and "Good" only exists as long as its viewed from the context of humanity..

If a frenzied animal kills a person do you call it "Evil"? no.. its just an animal.. animals kinda kill each other at regular basis.

Saying that evil existed before humans did is like saying that colors existed before eyes evolved to see them.
Quote:Because it must be an opposition in all things.
no its because God doesn't exist and you're making up excuses on behalf of your non-existent God.Laughat
Quote:When there is no an opposition then intelligent being(man) can not act for himself/herself. Intelligent being(man) has to be enticed by the one(good) or another(evil).
You're taking a flawed premise here... good&bad aren't mutually exclusive things and neither are they both pivotal forces necessary for life to exist..
Quote:If there is only good man is FORCED to do only good.
Well to be honest..i'm kinda "Forced" to do a lot of things like idk breathing and perhaps i'm kinda forced to age everyday too.. and i'm also forced to walk,eat,sleep,drink.. etc etc you get the idea.. so i won't mind if i'm "Forced" to do only good.
Quote: Rapist doesn't have a right to rape.
That's exactly what you mean by saying "The rapist should have moral agency"
Quote:but nobody takes away from me an opportunity to act on my own.
Oh.. that's because your country probably has LAWS to keep you in line! if you break them you suffer the consensuses depending the severity of your crimes.

Your God's laws are INVISIBLE the rapist and murderer probably doesn't care about your invisible God's laws..
Quote:I have an opportunity to break any law I want to. Nobody physically forces me to obey my country's laws.
police and Govt officials are NOT INVISIBLE your GOD(or perhaps any God) IS.
Quote:What you said makes lots of sense IF there is no knowledge that God never created evil in the first place and when there is knowledge about the reason WHY it must be an opposition in all things.
You have the foggiest idea of the concept of Good&evil...Unsure

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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23-01-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 01:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is wrong translation. Correct translation is this:" but Pharaoh hardened his heart."

Do you have any evidence this is the case aside from that it makes your case stronger? I ask, because one of the verses explicitly says "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them". Not only does he say that he (God) does it, but he gives an explicit reason for why he did it.

Seriously. How does that parse if we "re-translate it" to say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?

"Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for he has hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them"

It makes no sense! Why would Pharaoh harden his heart so that he could be further punished?


(23-01-2014 01:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  In my personal opinion it doesn't make sense that God would hardened Pharaoh's heart and then would punish him for hardened heart.

I know it doesn't make sense to your personal opinion. That's why I posted it.
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23-01-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 09:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  What has to be changed in order for someone not to want to have a desire to rape or to have desire to do any bad thing?
Well.. that's what an All powerful God is for isn't he ?? God should be able to correct Humanity
No, He is not for the purpose of correcting humanity. It would be forcing us to do good. Humanity has to CHOOSE to correct itself. It has to be our choice.
I have to have a desire to be good.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  God should genetically engineer humans to be kind&loving by default... and make it harder and harder for us to do bad things to each other and the planet in general.
It is forcing to be good. To be good is something that has to be achieved and not given. To make us good takes away from us our choice to be good.
You suggest that God should create perfect humans like He is Perfect. But perfection is something that has to be a choice and achievement of every intelligent being.
I have some questions. I really want to know your answers.
1)Could you tell me please: according to your morality to help someone who was caring heavy suitcase for a long time and very, very tired is a good/kind thing or bad thing?
2)if YOU CHOOSE to help to carry heavy suitcase because of the kindness of your heart is a good thing or bad? And how does it make you feel to help someone when it is your own choice?
3)if you are FORCED to help to carry heavy suitcase is this a good thing or evil thing? and how would you feel if someone forced you to do "good" thing?
Remember this teaching of Jesus Christ when he told His disciples to carry load for an extra mile? Roman soldiers could stop any Jew and force them to carry their load when they were tired. Jews hated Roman soldiers.
And imagine how they felt when Jesus told them to offer to carry an extra mile.
WHY DID JESUS TAUGHT THEM TO DO THIS? I really want to know your thoughts/opinion.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  something like clockwork orange's "treatment" comes to mind but i'd say if a rapist or a murderer suddenly starts shivering and gasping for air he would certainly try NOT to be bad and in that process no one is getting hurt.
Oh, this sounds so good. I wish this happened all the time.
But it is forcing. When we are forced to be good we can not achieve anything GOOD on OUR OWN. Then we are programmed robots or puppets in God's hands. Is this what you would like to be? a puppet in someone's hands? And no your own good and progressive achievements?

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  And "evil" and "Good" only exists as long as its viewed from the context of humanity..
Yes, if we talk about this Earth and Her inhabitants(humans). But there are earths many. And there were many earths before our Earth. And it will be many earths in the future. And "good" and "evil" is not only here and not only now.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  If a frenzied animal kills a person do you call it "Evil"? no.. its just an animal.. animals kinda kill each other at regular basis.
I agree with you. Animal does what animal has to do. Animal follows natural laws.
"Good" and "evil" are something that exists among intelligent beings like humans.
And only when there are moral laws. When there is no moral law there is no good and there is no evil. But everything is neutral.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Saying that evil existed before humans did is like saying that colors existed before eyes evolved to see them.
I talked about inhabitants of this Earth. As I said before there were humans before us on different earths and it will be other humans on other earths after us. And there are many different earth as our earth with inhabitants/humans. They also have moral laws.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Well to be honest..i'm kinda "Forced" to do a lot of things like idk breathing and perhaps i'm kinda forced to age everyday too.. and i'm also forced to walk,eat,sleep,drink.. etc etc you get the idea.. so i won't mind if i'm "Forced" to do only good.
Good. I am forcing you to tell mockingbird not to call me an idiot. I am forcing you to stand up for me against this bully. Do it. It is very good thing to do - to stop the bully.
P.S. I wish it was your own desire though.

(23-01-2014 01:11 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Oh.. that's because your country probably has LAWS to keep you in line! if you break them you suffer the consensuses depending the severity of your crimes.
I live in Idaho, USA. I have to buckle up when I drive. This is the law. But I had many opportunities to drive without my seat belt. Nobody is watching me every time I drive and forces me to buckle up.
When someone is applying for food stamps he/she has to be honest in answering all the questions. Many people lie/cheat. And they are doing this successfully for many years. Nobody is making them to pass lie detector. Nobody is FORCING them to be honest.

English is not my native language.
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23-01-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 01:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is wrong translation. Correct translation is this:" but Pharaoh hardened his heart."
Do you have any evidence this is the case aside from that it makes your case stronger?
Nobody has an original. What we have are copies of the copies.
But Spirit and Prophet tell what correct translation is. True statement makes sense makes sense.

(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I ask, because one of the verses explicitly says "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them". Not only does he say that he (God) does it, but he gives an explicit reason for why he did it.Seriously. How does that parse if we "re-translate it" to say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
This is the translation that was corrected by the Prophet of God:
go in unto Pharaoh, for he hath hardened his heart, and the hearts of his servants
, therefore I will show these my signs before him"
I agree with THIS translation not because it makes case but because it makes sense. The other translation is stupid translation in my opinion.
(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I know it doesn't make sense to your personal opinion. That's why I posted it.
It doesn't make sense in any personal opinion. it is very hard to defend what doesn't make sense.
I believe in what makes sense that is why I don't have to defend the un-defendable.
There is no argument against things that make sense.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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