Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2014 11:18 AM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:05 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:Alla:We are subjects to all natural laws. And the point that when we CAN do something to fight enemies(any evil) we HAVE to do it. Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil(enemies)

Read my starting post above - you didn't explain it.
The example of the bubonic plague - and many other examples, we cannot do something about it and its not directly humans fault.

Did we CREATE a treatment? Did we find a way to FIGHT this evil(enemy)?
If yes, then we are PROGRESSING.
To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing. It gives us endless opportunities to progress and to be kind and compassionate to others.

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 09:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  God did not inform anyone about prevention methods or any medical science or technology
Not only that the entirety of the religious scriptures are riddled with unscientific garbage which inadvertently proves the fact that there was no divine inspiration to people who wrote those scriptures.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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18-01-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing.
Easy for you to say as you're not the starving child who just lost his mother in africa.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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18-01-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  And the point that when we CAN do something to fight enemies(any evil) we HAVE to do it. Test is to fight and OVERCOME all kinds of evil(enemies)

The problem with the radical theistic belief system is the erroneously held notion that non-believers are evil. Those who want to destroy perfectly innocent people due to silly religious convictions are the truly evil ones, yet they are blind to viewing themselves as evil because they mistakenly think what they are doing is for the betterment of their religious cause. Theism has and always will be the real enemy.
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18-01-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 12:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing.
Easy for you to say as you're not the starving child who just lost his mother in africa.
I had, have and will have different trials.

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 12:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  The problem with the radical theistic belief system is the erroneously held notion that non-believers are evil.
this belief that non-believers are evil is a lie/evil.
(18-01-2014 12:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  Those who want to destroy perfectly innocent people due to silly religious convictions are the truly evil ones, yet they are blind to viewing themselves as evil because they mistakenly think what they are doing is for the betterment of their religious cause.
I agree.

(18-01-2014 12:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  Theism has and always will be the real enemy.

I agree that this kind of theism is enemy/evil.

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 12:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  I had, have and will have different trials.
No you haven't... you aren't born with cancer,you haven't been killed in a conflict of military.. these types of sufferings can never be made up for.. and in fact suffering shouldn't even exist if the world actually had a loving God.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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18-01-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
The best explanation for evil that I have ever heard took place in an argument with a deist, not a theist. She pointed out that the nasty state of the world would support a deity who is capricious and malevolent. Evil can thus be explained as part of the nature of god. It is to be expected.

I still haven't thought of any evidence based method of disproving this, but at the very least I think it makes belief in god irrelevant, since he is not morally obligated to care for anyone.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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18-01-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:08 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 12:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  I had, have and will have different trials.
No you haven't... you aren't born with cancer,you haven't been killed in a conflict of military.. these types of sufferings can never be made up for.. and in fact suffering shouldn't even exist if the world actually had a loving God.
I have different trials. and I don't know what is awaiting for me.
if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger. Strength always comes with overcoming something.
Becoming stronger = PROGRESSION.
PROGRESSION = GOOD

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  I have different trials. and I don't know what is awaiting for me.
if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger. Strength always comes with overcoming something.
Becoming stronger = PROGRESSION.
PROGRESSION = GOOD

I used to think like this. This is common Mormon ideology.

It came apart for me when I applied it to situations of extreme suffering. Many people die of AIDS all around the world, with absolutely no possibility of overcoming it or learning from the experience. Their suffering lacks purpose, since it cannot be defeated. Likewise, the suffering of kidnapped sexual slaves, which in some cases in the United States have been reported as lasting decades, is excruciating and humiliating beyond a moments basic understanding. As Christopher Hitchens once pointed out, surely the victims of this ghastly fate cry out to god for deliverance every day and yet are not rescued. We can all imagine how they must have begged and pleaded for their lives and dignity, while they were shown absolutely no mercy at all. To say that this is necessary, and even god given, as a trial and that it is merely an opportunity for the victim to overcome and "progress" is a disgusting and heartless concept. If overcoming was the point, god would not allow such horrific torture to go on. As anyone of faith knows, he has more than enough knowledge and power to make it so. What are we to infer about his character considering that he does not intervene?

It is inescapable to notice that this "progression" often comes with the resistance of the faithful. Jehovah's Witnesses decline life saving blood transfusions. Christian fundamentalists oppose stem cell research. The Catholic church continues to oppose life saving condom use most especially in Africa. Need I continue?

I don't think God is good. I think people try to be good despite his followers.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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