Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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23-01-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
So, basically, when the Bible tells you what you want to hear, it's accurate, and when it doesn't, it's not?

What happens if I testify to you that the Holy Spirit tells me that God is actually more cruel and vindictive than the Old Testament would indicate? What then?
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23-01-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 02:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, basically, when the Bible tells you what you want to hear, it's accurate, and when it doesn't, it's not?
I just don't believe things that don't make sense. I reject things that don't make sense.

(23-01-2014 02:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What happens if I testify to you that the Holy Spirit tells me that God is actually more cruel and vindictive than the Old Testament would indicate? What then?
I will tell you that this statement ON ITS OWN makes sense. But I will know that it is true when Holy Spirit will testify the same thing to me.

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23-01-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(22-01-2014 03:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 06:17 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  You have not explained anything outside claiming to be a hipster christian.

You have said you have a deity, but do not believe in the supernatural by which deities are defined.

As such, try again, and this time pay note to this portion of my quote:
"in exact and in no uncertain terms"
OK. Only because I was asked a question about my believes I want to be polite and I will give an answer.
Note: If you didn't ask me I wouldn't even talk about it.
So, Gods are intelligent Beings. They have physical bodies that are different than physical bodies of mortal humans. Their bodies are flesh and bones but there is no blood in their veins. There is spirit in their veins instead of blood. That is why They are immortal.
Holy Ghost is member of the Godhead. He is Spirit. He has body that is organized of spiritual matter. He has gender, He is intelligent, He can not be in more than one places at the same time. These intelligent beings(Gods) are all-knowing. What does it mean? It means that They have ability to anything They want WHEN or IF They want to know. They have unlimited access to any info They need or want to know.
About future. They can PREDICT very good future by knowing past and present very good. They can predict any consequences of any action. They can do it like I can predict for example that if I throw a ball up it will fall down.
They also will have access to any future info when it will be available.
They are all mighty. What does it mean? It means that They can do anything. But it doesn't mean that They will CHOOSE to do anything.
But it doesn't mean that each God can create himself or un-organized physical and spiritual matters.
Gods are part of the eternal universe and They apply natural laws for Their own purposes the same way as we do only on different level.
That's it for right now. If you have more questions I will be polite and I will try to answer them.

That all seems very much in the realm of the supernatural to which you have claimed to not believe.
For instance; what is this 'spirit' and how does it replace blood? And how does it grant immortality?
What exactly is this 'Holy Ghost'? Ghosts are by definition supernatural. And what is 'spiritual matter'? How does this stuff differ from normal matter?
Also 'all knowing' implies that they know everything at any time as they know all things, as opposed to knowing things only when needed. Also how can they know anything they want to know, prior to knowing it?
In regards to 'predicting' the future, it looks like all you are really saying is that 'they' can make guesses of how a given act will turn out as opposed to actually known the future itself. And what does it mean "when it will be available"? Is there a clerk somewhere that just keeps telling the god-people-things "Not until it becomes public!", forcing them to wait until the future happens to see if their guess was right?
One positive thing about all of this is you effectively bypass the omniscience/omnipotence paradox, because your gods are both all powerful, but not actually, and all knowing, but not actually.

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24-01-2014, 12:35 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 02:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, basically, when the Bible tells you what you want to hear, it's accurate, and when it doesn't, it's not?
I just don't believe things that don't make sense. I reject things that don't make sense.

I reject your god and your religion because they make no sense. Look at that, I just disproved your god. Q.E.D.


(23-01-2014 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 02:52 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What happens if I testify to you that the Holy Spirit tells me that God is actually more cruel and vindictive than the Old Testament would indicate? What then?
I will tell you that this statement ON ITS OWN makes sense. But I will know that it is true when Holy Spirit will testify the same thing to me.

So how can a third party tell who is right, who they should believe, if both Alla and RobbyPants claim to be speaking for the Holy Spirit; yet they disagree with each other? Therein lies the problem. They can't both be right, but they can both be (and indeed most likely are) wrong.

Welcome to World Religion 101.

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24-01-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 12:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So how can a third party tell who is right, who they should believe, if both Alla and RobbyPants claim to be speaking for the Holy Spirit; yet they disagree with each other? Therein lies the problem. They can't both be right, but they can both be (and indeed most likely are) wrong.

Welcome to World Religion 101.

That's why Mormonism solved this problem by creating a hierarchy of who's divine revelation trumps who's.
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24-01-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 07:23 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 12:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So how can a third party tell who is right, who they should believe, if both Alla and RobbyPants claim to be speaking for the Holy Spirit; yet they disagree with each other? Therein lies the problem. They can't both be right, but they can both be (and indeed most likely are) wrong.

Welcome to World Religion 101.

That's why Mormonism solved this problem by creating a hierarchy of who's divine revelation trumps who's.

Well fuck, so they've learned a thing or two from Star Wars?

Random Offshoots < Video Games < Comics < Books < Cartoons < Movies

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24-01-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
It's like they realize the potential problems of one piece of canon having multiple, non-collaborating authors!
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24-01-2014, 07:41 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 07:38 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's like they realize the potential problems of one piece of canon having multiple, non-collaborating authors!

I'll admit, my personal favorite piece of Mormonism creative bullshit is the baptising the dead bit; especially when they got ahold of Nazi records and started doing so to the Jews killed in the Holocaust. You have to give them credit for solving the problem of what to do to people who died before god's (final) revelation to man. Rolleyes

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24-01-2014, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 03:22 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, He is not for the purpose of correcting humanity.
WHAT!? are you FREAKKING kidding me ? GOD CREATED US! he is accountable FOR EVERYTHING humanity does!

You just can't pop a whole planet full of sentient beings into existence and then roll your eyes saying "Not my problem!"

This.. this is irresponsibility of EPIC proportions!
Quote:It would be forcing us to do good. Humanity has to CHOOSE to correct itself. It has to be our choice.
I already told you.. i'm forced to EAT.. i'm Forced to drink.. i'm forced to obey the laws of nature like gravity you know ?.. its not a big deal if i'd was
"forced" to do good.
Quote:It is forcing to be good.
Will you stop this already ? its really a bad excuse for God's inaction.

just because you are God doesn't mean you can evade accountability..

God knows the future and he knows that many of us are destined for failure and suffering.. and YET God doesn't doesn't do sh!t to stop that!
and you call this just&perfect?
Quote:To be good is something that has to be achieved and not given.
Being Good or evil is only just a character trait and it is decided mostly by randomness.
Quote:To make us good takes away from us our choice to be good.
WE DON'T HAVE CHOICE IN ANYTHING... this is "Free will" illusion we're talking about now.
Quote:You suggest that God should create perfect humans like He is Perfect.
Will you stop wooing your God for once ? you sound like a bootlicker -_-

I don't care how much "Perfect" he is.. for all i care..Dodgy

I just don't want things like inequality,suffering and injustice to exist.
Quote:But perfection is something that has to be a choice and achievement of every intelligent being.
What the hell!? is your God Cell from DBZ or something ? what's up with this freaky fetish of perfection.. -_-
Quote:because of the kindness of your heart is a good thing or bad?
There is no "Kindness" part of my heart... i could be an entirely different person if given different circumstances.

For ex:-if i was raised in an abusive environment then i won't be kind to ANYONE... that doesn't mean its my fault.. or that i don't have kindness in my heart.
Quote:if you are FORCED to help to carry heavy suitcase is this a good thing or evil thing?
Oh i see what you did there !!

Making it Impossible to do anything BAD Doesn't mean FORCING us to do Good.

I know the Difference!
Quote:Remember this teaching of Jesus Christ
I already told you i don't care about Jesus he's not an actual person.. there is no evidence for Jesus Christ he's most likely a mythical figure like Krishna who may or may NOT have existed as a human being at some time.
Quote:But it is forcing.
Well i don't think its "Forcing" when it becomes a part of human biology..
Quote:Then we are programmed robots or puppets in God's hands.
Even if we have this pseudo "Free will" God still knows our every action before we even think about doing it... we're still kind of "puppets" regardless of the freedom we have.
Quote:Is this what you would like to be?
A world without suffering and inequalities ?? YES PLEASE!
Quote:And no your own good and progressive achievements?
There's nothing more progressive than being free of suffering and inequalities.
Quote:But there are earths many. And there were many earths before our Earth.
What you said may or may not be true... but either way we don't know anything about it so its kinda redundant pondering about good or evil aliens... unless you're a Scientologist Rolleyes
Quote:"Good" and "evil" are something that exists among intelligent beings like humans.
err...actually intelligence is also relative. Confused in all technicality an ant is a very intelligent creature.

Ants navigate over long distances, find food, avoid predators, communicate, display courtship, care for their young, and so on.. that's PRETTY intelligent.

We are just relatively the MOST intelligent species on earth.... but we're far from being the only intelligent beings on earth
Quote:And only when there are moral laws.
Morality is subjective hence it cannot be a standard law.
Quote:As I said before there were humans before us on different earths and it will be other humans on other earths after us.
What makes you so certain about this ? how do you know about life on other planets?
Quote:And there are many different earth as our earth with inhabitants/humans
Again where's the proof for this ? we barely have any proof for the existence of life outside earth.
Quote:Good. I am forcing you to tell mockingbird not to call me an idiot.
Actually this forum doesn't have any rules against personal insults or condescending/provocative attitude.

So you just have to ignore people if they insult or bully you,i do this all the time.Drinking Beverage

Quote:I live in Idaho, USA. I have to buckle up when I drive. This is the law. But I had many opportunities to drive without my seat belt. Nobody is watching me every time I drive and forces me to buckle up.
In New Delhi wearing a helmet is compulsory when driving a 2 wheeler and the fine for not wearing one is 500-1000 Rs.. that's A LOT of money you don't want to lose.

MY point:No one wants to risk breaking the law.
Quote:When someone is applying for food stamps he/she has to be honest in answering all the questions. Many people lie/cheat.
Hmm... humans lie&cheat all the time.. we just need better laws to ensure people don't cheat.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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24-01-2014, 09:24 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Shit double post

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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