Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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24-01-2014, 11:37 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 02:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  It doesn't make sense in any personal opinion. it is very hard to defend what doesn't make sense.
I believe in what makes sense that is why I don't have to defend the un-defendable.
There is no argument against things that make sense.

(23-01-2014 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  I just don't believe things that don't make sense. I reject things that don't make sense.

I will tell you that this statement ON ITS OWN makes sense. But I will know that it is true when Holy Spirit will testify the same thing to me.

Wow miss Alla, a bunch of confusing statements going on there! So you cannot defend what does not make sense (to you), and there is no arguing what makes sense (to you), you reject what does not make sense (to you), but what the holy spirit testifies (to you) makes perfect sense (to you). Huh!

There is alot of common sense being used along the way here, which is all your judgement and morals being called upon. When scripture or revelations make no sense they can be dismissed? Fine, I dismiss them all since they make no sense (to me).

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 11:37 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Wow miss Alla, a bunch of confusing statements going on there! So you cannot defend what does not make sense (to you), and there is no arguing what makes sense (to you), you reject what does not make sense (to you), but what the holy spirit testifies (to you) makes perfect sense (to you). Huh!
I said to Robby Pants that his statement makes sense. And the only way for me to know if his statement is true if Holy Ghost testifies to me it is true.
I reject things that don't make sense. I don't believe in things that don't make sense. And Holy Ghost never testified to me of things that don't make sense.
If God hardened heart of Pharaoh and then punishes him for hardened heart it doesn't make sense. And to hardened someone's heart is work of Devil.

(24-01-2014 11:37 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  When scripture or revelations make no sense they can be dismissed?
I don't reject revelation from God I reject WRONG TRANSLATION. When we have copies of copies of some other copies and NOT originals the only way to know if translation is correct is through the revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

(24-01-2014 11:37 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Fine, I dismiss them all since they make no sense (to me).
You can do that. It is perfectly reasonable to me. Thumbsup And I know if you received a revelation from God you would accept many parts of the Scriptures. You would know which ones are true.

English is not my native language.
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24-01-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 12:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I reject your god and your religion because they make no sense. Look at that, I just disproved your god. Q.E.D.
It is very reasonable to reject what makes no sense to you.

(24-01-2014 12:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So how can a third party tell who is right, who they should believe, if both Alla and RobbyPants claim to be speaking for the Holy Spirit; yet they disagree with each other? Therein lies the problem. They can't both be right, but they can both be (and indeed most likely are) wrong.
third party can NOT tell who is right or if both are wrong UNTILL this third party has PERSONAL revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost.
RobbyPants can NOT know if I am telling the truth until God testifies to him that what I say is true.
The same is with me or you.

English is not my native language.
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24-01-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 03:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  I reject things that don't make sense. I don't believe in things that don't make sense. And Holy Ghost never testified to me of things that don't make sense.
If God hardened heart of Pharaoh and then punishes him for hardened heart it doesn't make sense. And to hardened someone's heart is work of Devil.

(24-01-2014 11:37 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  When scripture or revelations make no sense they can be dismissed?
I don't reject revelation from God I reject WRONG TRANSLATION. When we have copies of copies of some other copies and NOT originals the only way to know if translation is correct is through the revelation from God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So scriptures that don't make sense are ignored, and if they are not trusted due to translation and copies, makes them invalid. The scriptures are the only tangible thing that defines a faith, so if they cannot be trusted it all goes out the window.

What exactly occurs during one these revelations you speak of?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-01-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(23-01-2014 02:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have any evidence this is the case aside from that it makes your case stronger?
Nobody has an original. What we have are copies of the copies.
But Spirit and Prophet tell what correct translation is. True statement makes sense makes sense.

(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I ask, because one of the verses explicitly says "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them". Not only does he say that he (God) does it, but he gives an explicit reason for why he did it.Seriously. How does that parse if we "re-translate it" to say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
This is the translation that was corrected by the Prophet of God:
go in unto Pharaoh, for he hath hardened his heart, and the hearts of his servants
, therefore I will show these my signs before him"
I agree with THIS translation not because it makes case but because it makes sense. The other translation is stupid translation in my opinion.
(23-01-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I know it doesn't make sense to your personal opinion. That's why I posted it.
It doesn't make sense in any personal opinion. it is very hard to defend what doesn't make sense.
I believe in what makes sense that is why I don't have to defend the un-defendable.
There is no argument against things that make sense.

You continue to just make things up. Please cite a scholar who translates it that way. Or do you know ancient Aramaic or Greek and can translate it yourself?

It says what it says, not whatever you want it to say.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-01-2014, 04:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2014 04:56 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:No, He is not for the purpose of correcting humanity.
WHAT!? are you FREAKKING kidding me ? GOD CREATED US! he is accountable FOR EVERYTHING humanity does!
God gives us knowledge/instructions/laws that help us to correct ourselves. We have to correct ourselves. We have to govern ourselves that is why we have ability TO ACT and not only we are acted upon.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You just can't pop a whole planet full of sentient beings into existence and then roll your eyes saying "Not my problem!"
I agree. That is why He sends Prophets and Holy Ghost to teach us how to correct ourselves. We can do it. We can correct ourselves. You can correct yourself when you know what you have to do. And when you do it you feel true joy.
when you do the right on your own it makes you very happy.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  God knows the future and he knows that many of us are destined for failure and suffering.. and YET God doesn't doesn't do sh!t to stop that!
and you call this just&perfect?
Do you mean many of us are destined to failure and suffering in this life or in eternity or both? After you clarify I promise I will answer your question.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  WE DON'T HAVE CHOICE IN ANYTHING... this is "Free will" illusion we're talking about now.
That is not true. You can choose to tell the truth and you become an honest person. You may choose to offend those who do not share your believes and you become a jerk.
I can chose to obey God's laws and this is how I become perfect(God). I may choose NOT to obey God's laws and this is how I do NOT become perfect(God)

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You suggest that God should create perfect humans like He is Perfect.
Will you stop wooing your God for once ? you sound like a bootlicker -_- [/quote]
I thought that we were talking about why would God permit evil and suffering. I am trying to explain why.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I just don't want things like inequality,suffering and injustice to exist.
Me neither. But what we want is not enough. The key is what we DO.
Whatdo YOU do to make this world a better place? I am sure that you DO something that will help to reduce inequality, suffering and injustice.
You can CORRECT and I can do this and every one of us.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  There is no "Kindness" part of my heart... i could be an entirely different person if given different circumstances.
It is true. That is why we all will be judged differently. All you have to do is do
the best you can in your circumstances.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  For ex:-if i was raised in an abusive environment then i won't be kind to ANYONE... that doesn't mean its my fault.. or that i don't have kindness in my heart.
I totally agree with you. But some people who were abused can help those who go through the same thing. Abused person may choose to be abuser to others or may choose to be a healer of others. He/she may choose to help others to become stronger.
But we can not judge with perfect judgment those who become abusers themselves. We don't know state of their mind and trauma they have.
Those people may be forgiven by God.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Making it Impossible to do anything BAD Doesn't mean FORCING us to do Good.
I agree. But what kind of things would be good things if there is no evil/suffering?
Can you name some please?
And by the way when there is no evil there is no good but only NUETRAL.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I already told you i don't care about Jesus he's not an actual person.. there is no evidence for Jesus Christ he's most likely a mythical figure like Krishna who may or may NOT have existed as a human being at some time.
OK, but this is not my point. I am not telling you to believe in Jesus or anything. We are discussing why would God permit evil if He was real.
Jesus/God(we pretend He is real) taught to carry another mile? Why? Because when we are forced to do good(help to carry heavy load) we are not actually doing good. We even hate doing it and we hate those who make us do good.
But when we CHOOSE on OUR OWN to do good then we really do good and this is what makes us HAPPY. It brings us true joy.
But if there is no evil we can not chose on our own to do good. Unless you name me those good things that we can do when there is no evil. Please.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Even if we have this pseudo "Free will" God still knows our every action before we even think about doing it... we're still kind of "puppets" regardless of the freedom we have.
Really? What makes you think that God knows every our action BEFORE we think about it? Did somebody tell you this about God?


(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  There's nothing more progressive than being free of suffering and inequalities.
Yes, but if you placed in the world without suffering then you will have no part of that progression. And your own progression will be big fat zero.
To be progressive is to DO something progressive. When somebody else did all this you have no part of it.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Ants navigate over long distances, find food, avoid predators, communicate, display courtship, care for their young, and so on.. that's PRETTY intelligent.
Yes. Humans can do the same. If ants didn't suffer/struggle they would help each other.
When there is no evil there is no good but everything is neutral.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Morality is subjective[/b] hence it cannot be a standard law.
I agree that is why everybody sets own standards of morality. God sets His
own standard and He says that His standard helps us to become perfect.


(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  What makes you so certain about this ? how do you know about life on other planets?
Look, I only know what is in the Scriptures. And every person may decide to believe it or not. And any person can know if it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost.
(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Actually this forum doesn't have any rules against personal insults or condescending/provocative attitude.
I understand this. But this is not the point. My point that it is always good to do the RIGHT on your own and not to be forced to do the right.
Rules is just an excuse when someone doesn't want to do what is right. Unless in your moral world it is OK to be a bully. Unless in your world NOT to stand up against the bully is TRUE JUSTICE.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  So you just have to ignore people if they insult or bully you,i do this all the time.Drinking Beverage
Good.Thumbsup I do the same. But it makes me feel very good when I stand up for someone else.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  In New Delhi wearing a helmet is compulsory when driving a 2 wheeler and the fine for not wearing one is 500-100 Rs.. that's A LOT of money you don't want to lose.
I agree.

(24-01-2014 09:01 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Hmm... humans lie&cheat all the time.. we just need better laws to ensure people don't cheat.
I agree that laws can be more strict. It is good if law can FORCE people not to cheat/lie. But the problem is that no law can make people honest in their hearts.
Dishonest people will break those laws. They will look for ways to cheat those laws.
If God forced us not to do lie or cheat it wouldn't change our HEARTS/it wouldn't change us.
But the point that we have to change ourselves to be BETTER people. Then we CAN become part of perfect world where perfect people/Gods live.

English is not my native language.
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24-01-2014, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2014 05:13 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 04:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So scriptures that don't make sense are ignored,
Why not? What would be the difference if you didn't ignore them?
(24-01-2014 04:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  and if they are not trusted due to translation and copies, makes them invalid.
What is the point to make them valid if they are not trusted?

(24-01-2014 04:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The scriptures are the only tangible thing that defines a faith, so if they cannot be trusted it all goes out the window.
Yes, IF Scriptures are the ONLY tangible thing that defines a faith.
Not to me. By the way who told you that Scriptures are the ONLY tangible thing that suppose to define faith?

(24-01-2014 04:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  What exactly occurs during one these revelations you speak of?
I will not tell you what exactly occurs. There are reasons why I will not tell you.
But I will mention only one. I will not share it with you because you can find out by yourself.
If I tell you what occurs you will NOT KNOW if what I told is true.
You will not know if I was honest with you.
It is better to find out yourself.

English is not my native language.
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24-01-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 07:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 07:38 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's like they realize the potential problems of one piece of canon having multiple, non-collaborating authors!

I'll admit, my personal favorite piece of Mormonism creative bullshit is the baptising the dead bit; especially when they got ahold of Nazi records and started doing so to the Jews killed in the Holocaust. You have to give them credit for solving the problem of what to do to people who died before god's (final) revelation to man. Rolleyes
We have to do baptism for all. But it doesn't mean that all those for whom work is done will accept it. They are told that work is done for them and they are asked if they want to accept.
We don't know how Nazi will be judged, but God gives to all people an OPPORTUNITY to repent and to accept Christ. Then people will be judged according to their works.

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25-01-2014, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 10:41 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 04:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  God gives us knowledge/instructions/laws that help us to correct ourselves.
Which God's instructions are you talking about ? [Image: World_religions_pie_chart.png]

Which God's instructions is the "real" one ? and which one isn't ?
Quote:We have to correct ourselves.
@alla please answer this simple question :-

If you buy a product and if it has a poor quality do you blame the product or do you blame the company who made the product ?

If a watch can't keep time, do you blame the watch or the watchmaker?
Quote:We have to govern ourselves that is why we have ability TO ACT and not only we are acted upon.
Maybe that still doesn't rule out God's accountability..... remember he still created EVERYTHING.

Simply divorced parents can't get out of responsibilities for their children how in the bloody hell do you think the someone who created EVERYTHING is not accountable for EVERYTHING ? Angry
Quote:That is why He sends Prophets and Holy Ghost to teach us how to correct ourselves.
Well i got news for you... those "Prophets" are incredibly incompetent and failed to deliver their messages so badly as more than 60% of the world STILL doesn't know about those prophet's existence.
Quote:Do you mean many of us are destined to failure and suffering in this life or in eternity or both?
I'm only talking about this life of course..

We don't have any good evidence or reason to believe life exists after death.
Quote:That is not true. You can choose to tell the truth and you become an honest person. You may choose to offend those who do not share your believes and you become a jerk.
You're missing the point here.. no one "Chooses" to be a honest or bad person.. we just are what we are.
Quote:I can chose to obey God's laws
Which God's laws? Consider
Quote:You suggest that God should create perfect humans like He is Perfect.
Nope.. i just want humans to be less destructive and selfish then they naturally are programmed to be by evolution.
Quote:I thought that we were talking about why would God permit evil and suffering. I am trying to explain why.
Yeah but you are also constantly praising God which quite frankly gets really annoying after a while.

"He is perfect" "He is all Good"

I get it ! he's God you can stop telling how great&perfect your God is for once.Dodgy
Quote:What do YOU do to make this world a better place?
I can only do what one middle class undergraduate in a corrupt 3rd world country could do..

On the other hand God is all powerful and yet refuses to help living beings and lets them just suffer pointlessly.
Quote:That is why we all will be judged differently.
Judging us for what ? isn't God a moral hypocrite for judging us when he himself is guilty for not stopping the very crimes he's judging us for ?

We judge people because we want our society to be free of crimes and anarchy and we want to feel safe&orderly in our lives but what reason does God have to judge us after our death huh ? Our society isn't affected by the ones that are DEAD and therefore judging any human being after life for any transgression is irrelevant because THEY ARE DEAD.
Quote:Abused person may choose to be abuser to others or may choose to be a healer of others.
Now that's nonsense! no one can control one's emotional mental state... and no one can "Choose" to change one's demeanor..
Quote:Those people may be forgiven by God.
Pardon my expression.. but WHO THE HECK IS GOD TO FORGIVE the abuser ?? the only one who is in a position to "Forgive" the abuser is the victim himself/herself or people who were affected by the crimes of the abuser.
Quote:I agree. But what kind of things would be good things if there is no evil/suffering?
I don't care! i would just be happy that children won't be starving to death anymore!

I would just be happy to know that all animals live peacefully without killing each other.
Quote:Why? Because when we are forced to do good(help to carry heavy load) we are not actually doing good.
you are making a common semantic error here.

"Good" is subjective and it really depends on the context of the situation.

I am merely asking for removal of pointless suffering here.
Quote:We even hate doing it and we hate those who make us do good.
i'm not asking anyone to force to anything i'm just asking for removal of unnecessary suffering by the use of genetic engineering precaution measures.
Quote:But if there is no evil we can not chose on our own to do good.
that's like saying :-

"Everyone shouldn't be wealthy otherwise there won't be anymore starving children to feed"
Quote:Unless you name me those good things that we can do when there is no evil. Please.
I duuno maybe humanity would finally progress faster than it is right now! that's a pretty good thing.
Quote:What makes you think that God knows every our action BEFORE we think about it?
Are you telling me that there is something God DOESN'T KNOW ? then how the hell is that a God ?

God = All knowing&all powerful

"All knowing" literally means knowing everything and anything and that includes what you think.
Quote:Yes, but if you placed in the world without suffering then you will have no part of that progression.
Now that's not true at all... the progression would be doubled because we won't have weakness holding us back from showing our true potential as a species..
Quote:And your own progression will be big fat zero.
I don't exactly know how children starving or someone else getting assaulted adds up to my progress in life but i honestly don't care.
Quote:When there is no evil there is no good but everything is neutral.
Yes absolutely.. Thumbsup and that's what i call "Objective reality"

With the help of science its understandable that humans are genuinely egotistical,selfish and sometimes just downright ignorant towards things that they don't like.

No type of hockus-phokus God magic is going make everything bad go away..
Quote:God sets His own standard and He says that His standard helps us to become perfect.
Your God can keep his moral laws with himself and his perfection fetish.
Quote:Look, I only know what is in the Scriptures. And every person may decide to believe it or not. And any person can know if it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost.
you're not being intellectually honest here... i want to know why you are so certain about life outside earth.. are you basically saying that you blindly believe in the scriptures ?

if so then why not believe in other scriptures too ? there are so many religious scriptures you should also check out.
Quote:Rules is just an excuse when someone doesn't want to do what is right. Unless in your moral world it is OK to be a bully. Unless in your world NOT to stand up against the bully is TRUE JUSTICE.
Now.. i totally agree 100% on this statement.

Just like how you said being a bully actually was "True justice" in the ancient times it is only recently that human civilization has progressed in the field of equal human rights...

like 50 or 60 years before women didn't have equal rights,homosexuals didn't have any rights,racism was prevalent and so on and so forth..

All of this comes to shows that our sense of morality changes with time as we realize more about the world around us.
Quote:Then we CAN become part of perfect world where perfect people/Gods live.
Sounds too good to be true IMHO. i'll just stick to what's supported with evidence. >_>

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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25-01-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Which God's instructions are you talking about ?
Every religion has some parts of the truth. You can not know which religion is true or if any of them are true without personal revelation form God. If you don't have personal revelation from God you don't have to follow anything that you don't find good and moral.
Now I will answer your question: I didn't talk about any of those.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Which God's instructions is the "real" one and which one isn't?
It doesn't matter for you, does it?

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:We have to correct ourselves.
@alla please answer this simple question :-
If you buy a product and if it has a poor quality do you blame the product or do you blame the company who made the product ?
If a watch can't keep time, do you blame the watch or the watchmaker?[/quote]
I would blame company and watchmaker. But this is wrong comparison. Product/watch can NOT act it can be only acted on/upon.
If we were puppets in God's hands then we could blame God for the defects. But we are not His puppets. We have right TO ACT. And when I make decision to do evil then I am the one to blame.
Watch does not act on its own. Watch can not make own choices.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:We have to govern ourselves that is why we have ability TO ACT and not only we are acted upon.
Maybe that still doesn't rule out God's accountability..... remember he still created EVERYTHING.
I don't remember this. I don't even know which source tells that God Jehovah created everything. God never created MY WILL or YOUR WILL. You are creator of your own will. I am creator of my own will. I am blamed for MY wrong choices and I am awarded for my right choices.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Simply divorced parents can't get out of responsibilities for their children how in the bloody hell do you think the someone who created EVERYTHING is not accountable for EVERYTHING ? Angry
The one who created everything should be blamed for everything. But I don't know who he/she is. I know NOTHING about god that created everything.
Creator of this world and this earth didn't NOT create everything.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  That is why He sends Prophets and Holy Ghost to teach us how to correct ourselves.
Well i got news for you... those "Prophets" are incredibly incompetent and failed to deliver their messages so badly as more than 60% of the world STILL doesn't know about those prophet's existence.[/quote]
You can say that they are incompetent. Or you can say that they do ALL THEY CAN. They are not all-powerful and all-knowing.
I also want to tell you that according to revelation form God all those people who didn't have an opportunity in this life to know true Gospel of Jesus Christ will have this opportunity in spirit world. That is why true Church of God is the only Church on the face of earth who does the work to REDEEM THE DEAD.
All those who died in ignorance(about Gospel) hear it in spirit world. God is NOT respecter of person.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLABig Grino you mean many of us are destined to failure and suffering in this life or in eternity or both? I'm only talking about this life of course..
Sure. Stupid me. ALL OF US are here to suffer one way or another. We have to try to overcome those things that cause us to suffer. This way we are progressing.
Some fail, some don't. If I fail it is because it is my choice to fail. If I fail because trial was above my ability to endure to the end God will not hold me accountable.
I have to do only what I can.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You're missing the point here.. no one "Chooses" to be a honest or bad person.. we just are what we are.
I am sorry, IndianAtheist, but I can not agree with you. I agree that we are what we are but I KNOW that we can BECOME BETTER then what we are and this is the point. In this life we have to do all we can to be BETTER then we are.
We ALL can PROGRESS.
If you tell me that you can not try to be a better person then you are right now then I DON'T BELIVE it. Sorry, man.
You or I can also can become worse people then we are right now. It will depend on our choices.
If I start to gossip I will become worse person then I was before.
If I like to gossip but then I see how it may hurt someone and I feel bad about it I may choose still to continue to gossip because it is fun and makes me feel satisfied or I may choose to stop doing it and try to overcome my temptation to have this kind of fun.
If I choose first I WILL BECOME a better person. It will be some kind of PROGRESSION.
If I choose the second I will become worse person. And bad things can be attracted to me. It calls self-destruction.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:You suggest that God should create perfect humans like He is Perfect?
Nope.. i just want humans to be less destructive and selfish then they naturally are programmed to be by evolution.
IndianAtheist, all humans naturally programmed to be good. Every baby is an angel. Think about yourself for a moment. When you see someone needs help? What is your first instinct? Your first instinct is to help/to do GOOD. When we have this instinct we don't have to think:"why should I help? what would be my excuse to help?" That is our natural first impulse. We are BORN TO BE GOOD.
But what happened next?
1)we can follow our natural instinct(programmed)
2)we can not follow that instinct and start to reason or look for excuses why we shouldn't help.
Every time when we want to do bad we have to JUSTIFY ourselves. "Oh, I hurt this person because this person deserves it". "Oh, I didn't tell the truth because of this and that"
But when we tell the truth we don't have to justify ourselves. We don't have to come with excuse because to tell the truth is our natural instinct. We were born with it.
(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Yeah but you are also constantly praising God which quite frankly gets really annoying after a while.
You constantly attacking Him. It is not annoying to me because I understand why you are doing. I want to understand why people say what they say why the do what they do. This way they annoy me less. And this way I can help them better if they need my help.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:What do YOU do to make this world a better place?
I can only do what one middle class undergraduate in a corrupt 3rd world country could do..
Perfect. This what all people should do. Only all the CAN.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  On the other hand God is all powerful and yet refuses to help living beings and lets them just suffer pointlessly.
I already told you that suffering is not pointless. But when one human being makes another human being to suffer it is really pointless suffering. It is un-necessary suffering. But God's hands are tied. He can't stop us from making our choices. This is the point of THIS life: to make our own choices.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Judging us for what ? isn't God a moral hypocrite for judging us when he himself is guilty for not stopping the very crimes he's judging us for ?
This life is THE TEST - we have to make our own choices to have OUR OWN PROGRESSION. If God will control our actions then it will be NO test at all.

How is it possible to progress on your own?
To overcome evil/bad leads to progression. If I don't have a desire to do evil there is nothing to overcome.
So, let's say I have a desire to offend you. And now I am about to do this but God stops me.
What happens to me? Do I BECOME a better person? Do I have PERSONAL PROGRESS? The answer is no. I feel frustrated and angry. I want to do even more evil.
But what happens when I try to overcome my desire to hurt you? Then I become a better person. I have personal progress.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Now that's nonsense! no one can control one's emotional mental state...
I agree that we can not sometimes to control our mental state. When we can't control it we can not be judged.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  and no one can "Choose" to change one's demeanor..
I can if I CHOOSE to try very hard.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:But what kind of things would be good things if there is no evil/suffering?
I don't care! i would just be happy that children won't be starving to death anymore! [/quote]
OK, you don't care. It is fine with me. But please tell me what you think. What kind of things would be good if there was no evil things/suffering?

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  "Good" is subjective and it really depends on the context of the situation.
Yes, I agree. Everything is neutral until someone brings a law/moral law.



(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Unless you name me those good things that we can do when there is no evil. Please.
I duuno maybe humanity would finally progress faster than it is right now! that's a pretty good thing.[/quote]
Thanks for an answer. When there is no evil there is no good. When there is no good there is no evil.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:What makes you think that God knows every our action BEFORE we think about it?
Are you telling me that there is something God DOESN'T KNOW ?
Yes. I am telling you this. He doesn't know for sure what you choose to do until you actually do it. But when you do He DOES KNOW it. Nothing can be HIDEEN from Him that is why He is all-knowing. He can know what He wants to know and what He needs to know.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  then how the hell is that a God ?
He is PERFECT Being. It means that He doesn't break laws of the Universe. To be God means to be PERFECT in everything.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  God = All knowing&all powerful
"All knowing" literally means knowing everything and anything and that includes what you think.
Yes, He knows what I think or you think. But he doesn't what you don't think yet. He doesn't know your future thoughts. They DON'T EXIST YET.
When you have thought they exist and then they become part of "anything" or "everything". And only then God knows them.
If you choose the next second to change your mind and not to do what you planed to do God will know it. But He can not know what you didn't plan yet. You may surprise Him pleasantly or you may disappoint Him.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Yes, but if you placed in the world without suffering then you will have no part of that progression.
Now that's not true at all... the progression would be doubled because we won't have weakness holding us back from showing our true potential as a species..
OK. Please tell me how. Give me some examples of progression if there is no suffering.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I don't exactly know how children starving or someone else getting assaulted adds up to my progress in life but i honestly don't care.
I don't know this either. But they are not suffering that YOU may progress. You have to suffer in order to have personal progress.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  With the help of science its understandable that humans are genuinely egotistical,selfish and sometimes just downright ignorant towards things that they don't like.
yes, we all have our weakness. But we all can become at least a little bit better. I know that I can. I became more patient then I was before. I became more kind then I was before. I became less selfish then I was before. I became more honest then I was before. I became more strong then I was before and more forgiving and not so easy to take an offense.
When we are born we are good and clean/perfect as angels. But we are placed in different circumstances and we learn from others NOT to follow our good instincts.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:And any person can know if it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost.
you're not being intellectually honest here... i want to know why you are so certain about life outside earth.. are you basically saying that you blindly believe in the scriptures ?
I don't know for sure that there is life outside the earth. Yes, I believe the revelation about many earths.
But I know that I TRUST Spirit. I don't why I trust Him I just do.
It's like sometimes you know that you can trust someone and don't even know why you trust. It is just comes naturally. You just can't deny this trust.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  if so then why not believe in other scriptures too ?
Good point. I believe that ALL Scriptures have parts of the truth. And when I know by the power of the Holy Ghost which parts are true I accept them.

I also accept the truth that you say

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Just like how you said being a bully actually was "True justice" in the ancient times it is only recently that human civilization has progressed in the field of equal human rights...
Yes, and this is OUR progress. We/humans can claim it. And this is the point. This life is the TEST. Through struggles we progress. We are GROWING.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  like 50 or 60 years before women didn't have equal rights,homosexuals didn't have any rights,racism was prevalent and so on and so forth..
We become BETTER. And this what is required of us - to become better on OUR OWN. That is why it is OUR progression.


(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Then we CAN become part of perfect world where perfect people/Gods live.
Sounds too good to be true IMHO.
Actually I agree with you. This is what I said when I have learned this.
If in this life we don't learn how to be more perfect/better people we can not be part of perfect world. We won't feel comfortable. We won't feel as a part of it. We will hate it and it will be like a hell to us.

(25-01-2014 10:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  i'll just stick to what's supported with evidence. >_>
Sure, do this. If you try to be a better person today then you were yesterday then you do what is right.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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