Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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25-01-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 05:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 07:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'll admit, my personal favorite piece of Mormonism creative bullshit is the baptising the dead bit; especially when they got ahold of Nazi records and started doing so to the Jews killed in the Holocaust. You have to give them credit for solving the problem of what to do to people who died before god's (final) revelation to man. Rolleyes
We have to do baptism for all. But it doesn't mean that all those for whom work is done will accept it. They are told that work is done for them and they are asked if they want to accept.
We don't know how Nazi will be judged, but God gives to all people an OPPORTUNITY to repent and to accept Christ. Then people will be judged according to their works.

That is so incredibly stupid that words fail even me.

How idiotic. How fucking arrogant. You people are sick in the fucking head.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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25-01-2014, 10:18 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(25-01-2014 08:23 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 05:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  We have to do baptism for all. But it doesn't mean that all those for whom work is done will accept it. They are told that work is done for them and they are asked if they want to accept.
We don't know how Nazi will be judged, but God gives to all people an OPPORTUNITY to repent and to accept Christ. Then people will be judged according to their works.

That is so incredibly stupid that words fail even me.

How idiotic. How fucking arrogant. You people are sick in the fucking head.

I made this months ago for use here, does it suffice?

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25-01-2014, 11:39 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
That's very good.

And you jogged my memory for this one, which is also quite apt:




It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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26-01-2014, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2014 01:42 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(25-01-2014 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Every religion has some parts of the truth.
Truth about what?
Quote:You can not know which religion is true or if any of them are true without personal revelation form God.
....Frusty your vagueness is killing me! Revelation from which "God" ?

Making the distinction here is very important because none of the world religions agree that they all worship the same God instead they claim that others are false idols.

So there's always a constant turmoil on who's God is the "Correct" God.
Quote:It doesn't matter for you, does it?
Maybe but it sure does when you keep mentioning about "God's instructions"... there are so many "God's instructions" floating around you know ?

You have the Vedas,Gita,Quran,The Bible,the hebrew bible,Mormon bible,protestant bible,catholic bible etc etc
Even from a purely philosophical standpoint its really impossible to single out any one these as they all claim to be "God's instructions" Flex
Quote:Product/watch can NOT act it can be only acted on/upon.
What about self conscious Robots ? they certainty do act on their own.[Image: asimo_2049641b.jpg]

Humans are just biological robots in a sense so if we are have defects in our "Design" its blame goes on whoever made us!
Quote:But we are not His puppets.
God still knows exactly what will happen next and that means God knows every nano-second of your life before you're born!

It doesn't matter how much "freely" you act.. God still knows how you'll kick the bucket when you're just a toddler.

God is pretty much like the Jigsaw Killer for children born in the poverty&illiteracy who commit horrible crimes .. and God just watches them "Freely" commit crimes knowing very well before their births that they'd grow up to be criminals.
Quote:I am the one to blame.
You are a product of God so conversely God's kinda responsible for whatever you do.
Quote:I don't even know which source tells that God Jehovah created everything.
God created the EARTH and heavens! haven't you read the genesis ? geez Dodgy
Quote:God never created MY WILL or YOUR WILL.
But he did create both of us.
Quote:You are creator of your own will.
Oh is that so ? Consider

I don't recall "choosing" to be born in a 3rd world country with a corrupt legislation and a patriarchal gender biased society!

I Swear to God(if there's one) I WOULD NEVER have chosen be born premature.No
Quote:I am blamed for MY wrong choices and I am awarded for my right choices.
Yes that would be GREAT.. but there's one problem.. there is no choice to be born in horrid conditions.
Quote:But I don't know who he/she is. I know NOTHING about god that created everything.
All you need to know is that EVERYTHING you see is a direct result of God's will.
Quote:Creator of this world and this earth didn't NOT create everything
Well..this world is "Everything" for us.
Quote:Or you can say that they do ALL THEY CAN. They are not all-powerful and all-knowing.
That's not my problem.. an "All knowing&all powerful" God should deliver the message himself if the prophets he sends are so incompetent or perhaps he should send prophets in every part of the world instead of just some remote area of middle east.
Quote:all those people who didn't have an opportunity in this life to know true Gospel of Jesus Christ will have this opportunity in spirit world.
Oh really ? what about Allah ? what about Zeus ? what about Krishna ?

They're all just mythical figures for you but this one story of Magical healing Jewish carpenter is supposedly true?
Quote:All those who died in ignorance(about Gospel) hear it in spirit world.
So just because God is so incompetent in delivering his message to the people have to live wasteful lives ?
Quote:ALL OF US are here to suffer one way or another.
Well i'm pretty positive that i'm not one of the people who will live the rest of our lives scavenging basic necessities like most of people who live in dire conditions..
Quote:Some fail, some don't.
And the funny thing is God knows who'll fail and who won't... he's just watching it happen with sheer indifference.
Quote:God will not hold me accountable.
I'm calling the shots here,how the heck can God hold ANYONE accountable ?

if anything God is accountable for everything.
Quote:we can BECOME BETTER then what we are and this is the point.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but for some people there is just no hope in the entire lives... and they CLEARLY never "Choose" to be born predisposed to misery and suffering.
Quote:If you tell me that you can not try to be a better person
I can "try" but i cannot "Choose" to be one.

I'm pretty sure even Hitler at some point in his life "Tried" to be a better person.. regardless to say he didn't have the ability to "Choose" to be a Good person because he was what he was....a product of his upbringing and some unfortunate circumstances.
Quote:IndianAtheist, all humans naturally programmed to be good.
No they're not..humans are predatory animals and predatory/social animals are typically found killing and fighting with each other for territory&resources.

I don't think being programmed like that is "Good".
Quote:we don't have to think:"why should I help?
It depends.... if that's a serial killer you really have to think twice before helping.
Quote:That is our natural first impulse.
Not exactly.. it all depends on your upbringing.

Quote:we can not follow that instinct and start to reason or look for excuses why we shouldn't help.
Hmm.. it seems like you're just insulting your own God at this point.Laughat

Your God doesn't help starving children.. and has "excuses" on why he cannot help that starving child and countless other creatures in serious need of help.

Quote:Every time when we want to do bad we have to JUSTIFY ourselves. "Oh, I hurt this person because this person deserves it".
Oh now you're just insulting Yahweh!.Weeping

Yahweh also justifies killing newborn children of Egypt because "they deserved it"
Quote:to tell the truth is our natural instinct.
If that was true then everyone should be a honest person but that's not the case at all.
Quote:You constantly attacking Him.
i'm only attacking the idea of a personal God lol

I wholeheartedly approve of deism but not theism.
Quote:I already told you that suffering is not pointless.
I fail to see the point if there is one...i don't think starving children&Fatal diseases are necessary for any kind of progress they're only deterrents.

Quote:But God's hands are tied. He can't stop us from making our choices.
i'm just going to quote you lol

"Every time when we want to do bad we have to JUSTIFY ourselves" don't look at me! you said that yourself.Rolleyes
Quote:This is the point of THIS life: to make our own choices.
Sorry you CANNOT justify the uncertainty&cruelty of this life by giving us a vague presumption of afterlife.
Quote:If God will control our actions then it will be NO test at all.
Hmm.... well correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the instructions given by God "controlling" our lives via Religion?

And what about all the miracles and stuff God did? they clearly did control our actions..

its funny how God is more than ready to drown the entire earth yet couldn't be bothered about feeding some starving children.
Quote: What happens to me? Do I BECOME a better person?
Why does that matter to God? Being a better person only matters as long as you're alive anyway.

I think starving children&babies should be like the No1 priority for any sane God.
Quote:I can if I CHOOSE to try very hard.
Yes that's true.. you can try to change your demeanor but not "Choose".
Quote:What kind of things would be good if there was no evil things/suffering?
Well for one... things like Poverty,infant mortality,Cancer,Gender bias,Racism would be HISTORY!

And there would be many many good things like world nations dropping their grievances,cultural ideologies and coming together and humanity finally progressing 10000% times times more faster than it is right now!
Quote:Nothing can be HIDEEN from Him that is why He is all-knowing.
No to be truly "All knowing" he should be able to know exactly what you'll think or do next.

Even humans have a predictive ability... so saying that God cannot know what his creations might be up to is like saying that he isn't "ALL KNOWING"
Quote:He doesn't break laws of the Universe.
Okay.. you keep talking about Eternal Laws and yet you fail to educate me on this subject.. what laws does God abide to exactly? and how exactly is God "breaking the laws" by helping some starving children ?

God sure had no problem healing people as a Jesus so why can't he do that now with cancer patients ? wasn't Jesus "Breaking the laws" by curing leprosy?
Quote:They DON'T EXIST YET.
EXACTLY! God KNOWS THE FUTURE!! that's why he's all knowing remember ?

Humans can predict the future.
God KNOWS the future.

Quote:OK. Please tell me how. Give me some examples of progression if there is no suffering.
Yeah look at all those things i said about humanity progressing 1000% faster.
Quote:I don't know this either. But they are not suffering that YOU may progress. You have to suffer in order to have personal progress.
LOL i must have a morbid sense of humor but i cannot ignore the masochist implications of that statement lol
Quote:by the power of the Holy Ghost which parts are true I accept them.
lol that's funny Holy Ghost is also a part of monotheistic Christian scripture.
Quote:We become BETTER. And this what is required of us - to become better on OUR OWN. That is why it is OUR progression.
you're missing the point here.. i was trying to tell you that our moral behavior and sensitivity is not quite as old as we'd like to think...

I literally shudder even thinking about how our ancestors lived before they formed civilizations or any proper form of a society.
Quote:If in this life we don't learn how to be more perfect/better people we can not be part of perfect world.
I don't care about being a part of a perfect world... all that matters to me is what's here&now.

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Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
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Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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01-02-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Every religion has some parts of the truth.
Truth about what?
I don't know. I just know that parts of the truth can be found in every philosophy of men.
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Revelation from which "God" ?
The One Who created your spirit body and your physical body and this world that you live in. It doesn't matter at this point for you what His name is.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Making the distinction here is very important because none of the world religions agree that they all worship the same God instead they claim that others are false idols.
Exactly. That is why even if I tell you Who He is you want know it for yourself. First you have to receive a revelation from Him then you will know that He is. Ask Him.
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Maybe but it sure does when you keep mentioning about "God's instructions"... there are so many "God's instructions" floating around you know ?
When you don't believe in God you don't need His instructions. What is the point?

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You have the Vedas,Gita,Quran,The Bible,the hebrew bible,Mormon bible,protestant bible,catholic bible etc etc
Even from a purely philosophical standpoint its really impossible to single out any one these as they all claim to be "God's instructions" Flex
Possible IF there is God Who is Creator of you and of this world. IF there is God of this world He WILL answer to you. But you have to ask Him with real intent and sincere heart believing that He will answer.




Quote:Product/watch can NOT act it can be only acted on/upon.
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  What about self conscious Robots ? they certainty do act on their own.[Image: asimo_2049641b.jpg]
Are they programmed to have their own will? If they are then they are not robots.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  God still knows exactly what will happen next and that means God knows every nano-second of your life before you're born!
No, He doesn't. He doesn't know every choice you will make in the future. But He can tell you what will happen for sure if you make this choice or that choice.
He knows every CONSIQUENCE of EVERY choice/action.
We can choose our actions/choices but we can NOT choose consequences. And very often we have no idea what will be the consequence.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  It doesn't matter how much "freely" you act.. God still knows how you'll kick the bucket when you're just a toddler.
No, He doesn't. He observes you and He knows in what direction you are going. He knows what will happened to you when He learns your direction. So, only after you make your choice He knows the consequence(the future).

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  God is pretty much like the Jigsaw Killer for children born in the poverty&illiteracy who commit horrible crimes .. and God just watches them "Freely" commit crimes knowing very well before their births that they'd grow up to be criminals.
Yes, He may guess very well if someone can choose wrong road but He still has to give a chance. According to the Gospel of Jesus Christ every person that is born on Earth made a choice in pre-existence to come here on earth and tested. God can not take away from us our choice to come here. We all had great desire to progress here on Earth, to be tested and have our own eternal FAMILIES.
FAMILY is central part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God could not deny us to have this opportunity.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:I don't even know which source tells that God Jehovah created everything.God created the EARTH and heavens! haven't you read the genesis ? geez Dodgy
Yes. And I see that God created earth and heaven but where is "everything"?
How big is heaven according to this source? How many heavens do exist in the universe according to this source?
Oh, and who created building MATERIAL according to this source?
When I have answers to those questions then I may see that you are correct.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:God never created MY WILL or YOUR WILL.
But he did create both of us. You are creator of your own will.
Oh is that so ? Consider
I don't recall "choosing" to be born in a 3rd world country with a corrupt legislation and a patriarchal gender biased society!
True, you do not recall this. But God reminded us through the revelations that it was your choice. You knew where you will be born and what kind of trials you will have. I am here. I am your spirit sister and very happy to share with you this knowledge. But weather you believe me or not I know and you know that you can PROGRESS in any circumstances. You can become better person then you are now. You have this potential because you are coming from Royal and Noble Family weather you believe me or not. You are SON of God.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I Swear to God(if there's one) I WOULD NEVER have chosen be born premature.No
It didn't seem that bad and that hard when we were there. We chose to go through whatever would happen because we KNEW what we can BECOME.
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I am blamed for MY wrong choices and I am awarded for my right choices.
Yes that would be GREAT.. but there's one problem.. there is no choice to be born in horrid conditions.[/quote]
You already know that this is not true.
(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Creator of this world and this earth didn't NOT create everything.
Well..this world is "Everything" for us.
True. But your will is not part of this physical world.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  "All knowing&all powerful" God should deliver the message himself if the prophets he sends are so incompetent or perhaps he should send prophets in every part of the world instead of just some remote area of middle east.
He did. Only you can not find this info in the Bible. Book of Mormon tells us that God sent His prophets in America and other parts of the earth.
Bible is book that is given to us from the Jews or tribe of Judah. But there are more then one nation or one tribe. God spoke to them too.
Today God sends His prophets and missionaries in many parts of the world. And if there are places where God didn't send His messengers yet it can be for different reasons.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  All those who died in ignorance(about Gospel) hear it in spirit world. So just because God is so incompetent in delivering his message to the people have to live wasteful lives ?
Why do you think their lives are wasteful? You don't have Gospel in your life but your life is not wasteful. You can do a lot of good in your life and be a better person (improve yourself) every day.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Some fail, some don't.
And the funny thing is God knows who'll fail and who won't... he's just watching it happen with sheer indifference.
It doesn't mean that they can not repent in spirit world. Repentance brings forgiveness. One thing to fail having knowledge and another thing to fail not having knowledge. We all fail in some things but improve in some other things. Or at least we try.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:we can BECOME BETTER then what we are and this is the point.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but for some people there is just no hope in the entire lives..
It may be true. But they still help each other in any way they can. Very often this kind of people are the most kind and the most compassionate people on earth. They progress too. In their own pace and ability and according to their knowledge.


(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  and they CLEARLY never "Choose" to be born predisposed to misery and suffering.
According to the Gospel of Jesus Christ they DID. The same like Jesus chose to come here and have His trials.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:IndianAtheist, all humans naturally programmed to be good.
No they're not..humans are predatory animals and predatory/social animals are typically found killing and fighting with each other for territory&resources.
I don't think being programmed like that is "Good".
Most of the time it is a choice to kill someone. It take someone's will to kill. But we are creators of our own will.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:That is our natural first impulse to do good.
Not exactly.. it all depends on your upbringing.
Because of our upbringing sometimes it is very hard to follow our natural instincts.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  we can not follow that instinct and start to reason or look for excuses why we shouldn't help.
Hmm.. it seems like you're just insulting your own God at this point.Laughat
Not at all. It would my society fault or my parents fault IF they teach me wrong things. Or it can be my will not to follow. God is not creator of my own will. I am. I am blamed for my wrong choices.

(26-01-2014 01:21 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Your God doesn't help starving children.. and has "excuses" on why he cannot help that starving child and countless other creatures in serious need of help.
He does when He sends people who feed starving children. But He wants us to HAVE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. This way we MAY progress.

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01-02-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
In response to the question in the opening post, I've never come across a theistic response I would characterize as "good". It's all handwaving all the way down.

All the responses I've come across consist of variations on a single theme: "You can't prove that god doesn't have a plan with allowing natural evil". That's about what all the excuses amount to, the theist arguing from the position that they assume god has a plan for allowing natural evil.

No, I can't prove that. But they're the ones who need to demonstrate that their god exists and has a plan, otherwise the proposition shouldn't be believed. It says so in my old book isn't evidence that the claim is true.

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03-02-2014, 01:32 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(24-01-2014 05:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 07:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'll admit, my personal favorite piece of Mormonism creative bullshit is the baptising the dead bit; especially when they got ahold of Nazi records and started doing so to the Jews killed in the Holocaust. You have to give them credit for solving the problem of what to do to people who died before god's (final) revelation to man. Rolleyes
We have to do baptism for all. But it doesn't mean that all those for whom work is done will accept it. They are told that work is done for them and they are asked if they want to accept.
We don't know how Nazi will be judged, but God gives to all people an OPPORTUNITY to repent and to accept Christ. Then people will be judged according to their works.

Alla, your religion (and your infantile understating of it) are sick in the head. So here's a little history lesson for you.

The Nazis, as part of their goal of instilling Aryan superiority, made it a priority to separate the 'pure' from the 'undesirable'; they being the Jews, gypsies, the mentally handicapped, etc. In pursuit of this goal, they created rules for examining a person's genealogy to determine their worth, much like looking at the breeding history of race horses. To make this job easier, the Nazis negotiated and made treaties with those who had and kept such records, most notably the Roman Catholic Church. They used these church records to weed out people who had Jewish ancestry back three (?) or less generations.

So not only did the Nazis have access to these records, they created plenty of records of their own of everything they did during the 'Final Solution'. Every person and family that was deported was tracked and logged, from the point when the Nazis rounded them up like cattle until their deaths in the various concentration camps. The Nazis kept copious records of these dealings, most of whom concerned people of Jewish descent.

Your religion, the Church of Latter Day Saints, got their hands on these records for the express purpose of posthumously baptizing the murdered Jews of Europe into your own faith. That your religion would have the gall and the wherewithal, to presumptuously violate the faith of those long since dead or able to protest? The arrogance of such an action is almost beyond human words, I can only imagine it derives from an epic level of myopic narcissism.

This is just one of the many reasons that your region can fuck right off. Ironically enough, it's also one of the reasons that many others of faith would agree with me when I say that.

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03-02-2014, 03:46 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(03-02-2014 01:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your religion, the Church of Latter Day Saints, got their hands on these records for the express purpose of posthumously baptizing the murdered Jews of Europe into your own faith.
This is deplorable shit! they might as well dig up their graves and piss on their corpses!

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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03-02-2014, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 07:44 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(01-02-2014 06:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  The One Who created your spirit body and your physical body and this world that you live in.
Exactly which God is the one who created by spirit body and my physical body ? Is it Zeus ? is it thor ? is it Vishnu ?? i'm confused because they all have as much of evidence as spiderman.
Quote:you have to receive a revelation from Him then you will know that He is. Ask Him.
So you're not going to tell me which one is real eh?
Quote: What is the point?
The point is you need to be specific when you're talking about "Gods instructions" because there are so many of them.
Quote:But you have to ask Him with real intent and sincere heart believing that He will answer.
I don't know which God to ask or believe in.
Quote:Are they programmed to have their own will?
No but they certainty do act on their own unlike a watch which doesn't act on its own.

So the watchmaker/God analogy makes perfect sense its God's mistake that he made us in the first place.
Quote:No, He doesn't. He doesn't know every choice you will make in the future.
Then your God is NOT All knowing.

If there's something God doesn't know.. then he's NOT omniscient.
Quote:Yes, He may guess very well
What do you mean by "Guess"? its GOD we're talking about! God is supposed to be ALL KNOWING there's no need to Guess if you know everything.
Quote:made a choice in pre-existence to come here on earth and tested./quote]That's HOGWASH! no one chooses to be born the same way no choose to die.[quote]Yes. And I see that God created earth and heaven but where is "everything"?
Everything that matters(Solar system&the all the "Stars") was created by God.
Quote:When I have answers to those questions then I may see that you are correct.
FYI the source is BIBLE i was just quoting it.
Quote:True, you do not recall this.
Of course i don't its blatant hogwash! who in the right mind would choose to be born in poverty or being born with severe disabilities?I hardly think a sperm cell has much of a choice.
Quote:True. But your will is not part of this physical world.
there's no evidence for "non-physical" world.
Quote:Book of Mormon tells us that God sent His prophets in America and other parts of the earth.
That's refuted easily by the fact that there is 0% evidence to back that up and all the major world religions contradict each other so no there were no prophets all over the globe spreading the SAME message.
Quote:It may be true.
It maybe true ?? IT IS TRUE! people born in dire conditions don't really have a choice but to suffer.
Quote:According to the Gospel of Jesus Christ they DID.
According to my common sense Gospel of Jesus Christ is Hogwash.

Quote:Most of the time it is a choice to kill someone. It take someone's will to kill. But we are creators of our own will.
You're just jumbling up established things... we fight&kill because we are programmed like that to survive.
Quote:Because of our upbringing sometimes it is very hard to follow our natural instincts.
your natural instincts do NOT include helping someone... it solely depends on your upbringing NOT your instincts.
Quote:Not at all. It would my society fault or my parents fault IF they teach me wrong things.
A society is made by people and those people were made by your God so therefore the responsibility lies on GOD.
Quote:He does when He sends people who feed starving children. But He wants us to HAVE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. This way we MAY progress.
I love quoting you right now "Every time when we want to do bad we have to JUSTIFY ourselves"

You justify the indifferent suffering around the world by giving us a vague pretense of afterlife for which there is 0% evidence.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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05-02-2014, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 02:58 PM by Alla.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Exactly which God is the one who created by spirit body and my physical body ? Is it Zeus ? is it thor ? is it Vishnu ?? i'm confused because they all have as much of evidence as spiderman.
Exactly. That is why you don't need the name. I only respond to your arguments about God-Creator of your body and this world (whatever His name is).
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  So you're not going to tell me which one is real eh? [quote] What is the point?
OK, I will tell you. Elohim is God of your spirit. Jehovah or Jesus Christ is creator of this physical world.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  The point is you need to be specific when you're talking about "Gods instructions" because there are so many of them.
True. But again. You don't need to know those instructions if you don't believe in Gods who are Creators of your spirit and this physical world. What are you going to do with this knowledge? Nothing. You don't need to know them.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I don't know which God to ask or believe in.
You creator knows this that is why He doesn't require you to call Him by name now. He will hear you even if you don't know anything about Him.
But I already gave His name - Elohim. You can also ask Jehovah or Jesus Christ.
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Are they programmed to have their own will?
No but they certainty do act on their own unlike a watch which doesn't act on its own.
We are not programmed by the creator. We have our will. We can choose our actions. And by doing so we can be either happy or miserable. We are creators of our own destiny.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:No, He doesn't. He doesn't know every choice you will make in the future.
Then your God is NOT All knowing.
He is. Only not by your definition of "all-knowing". Your definition of all-knowing is not real. It is some kind of fiction.
But to know consequences of every action is possible only for a person who has this kind of information.
Also all-knowing person is the person who can get any info that is available any time he or she wants/needs to know.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  If there's something God doesn't know.. then he's NOT omniscient.
Only if your interpretation of what God means by "all-knowing" is correct. Your interpretation of "all-knowing" is fantasy/something un-realistic/absurd.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  What do you mean by "Guess"? its GOD we're talking about! God is supposed to be ALL KNOWING there's no need to Guess if you know everything.
I am telling you about real God and not a fantasy god that has absurd/un-realistic definition of "all-knowing".
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  That's HOGWASH! no one chooses to be born the same way no choose to die.
I am sorry. I didn't understand.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Yes. And I see that God created earth and heaven but where is "everything"?Everything that matters(Solar system&the all the "Stars") was created by God.
Yes. God created heaven and earth and everything that is in them. But where does it say that heaven and earth is absolutely everything? Where does it say that heaven is all infinite space? What is beyond that heaven that God created and was it created by our God Jehovah? or Elohim?
Did God create material from which He organized this earth or heaven? or bodies of Adam and Eve?
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Of course i don't its blatant hogwash! who in the right mind would choose to be born in poverty or being born with severe disabilities?I hardly think a sperm cell has much of a choice.
Sperm cell makes no such choices. But the spirit(you) who entered physical body that was created made this choice. You made this choice that is why you entered physical body that your parents and nature prepared for you.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  there's no evidence for "non-physical" world.
There is no direct evidence. But you know that you are more than just piece of flesh and bones. You are more than just piece of physical matter.


(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Book of Mormon tells us that God sent His prophets in America and other parts of the earth.
That's refuted easily by the fact that there is 0% evidence to back that up and all the major world religions contradict each other so no there were no prophets all over the globe spreading the SAME message.
True. But I am sharing with you Scriptures that testify this. You don't have to believe.
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  IT IS TRUE! people born in dire conditions don't really have a choice but to suffer.
It is true, they suffer. But they still have choice to do what is right in their conditions. They still can choose to be kind or un-kind to others, to be honest or dishonest. To be hard working or to be lazy. To be creative or not to be creative.
By making those choices they either progress/grow or fall/on a path to self-destruction.
(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  your natural instincts do NOT include helping someone... it solely depends on your upbringing NOT your instincts.
I disagree. Our first instinct is to help others. But our upbringings make us think:
" TO HELP OR NOT HELP?
When we don't help we always have excuses why we don't do it. When we help we don't need any excuses.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  A society is made by people and those people were made by your God so therefore the responsibility lies on GOD.
I agree that responsibility lies on my God IF my God is Creator of my will or your will or anybody else's will. But He is not.
Or by the way. If I follow your logic then blame is not on our God but on God who created our God. But then blame is on god who created God of our God. And then blame is on god who created that god and so on and on and on and on....to infinity because there is no the first god and it will never be the last god.

(03-02-2014 07:18 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You justify the indifferent suffering around the world by giving us a vague pretense of afterlife for which there is 0% evidence.
True. I can not provide for you any evidence of afterlife. But let's pretend that you are 100% right and there is no life after death.
I KNOW FACTS that every suffering makes us to overcome it. And by overcoming sufferings we become stronger, wiser, more experienced, better people. We PROGRESS. Humanity PROGRESS by overcoming things.
This is good outcome.
But I am so happy to know that no suffering is in vain especially when we talk about innocent victims.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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