Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger.
No that's not true at all... God can make the world without suffering if he wishes to but he doesn't because he works in "mysterious ways".
Quote:Strength always comes with overcoming something.
It doesn't have to be the piles of dead bodies of innocents... its seriously a flaw in a "loving" God's design (if there is one).

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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18-01-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:18 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 01:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger.
No that's not true at all... God can make the world without suffering if he wishes to but he doesn't.
You can not become stronger without overcoming something. To overcome something is not always easy thing to do.
God can make world without suffering but then you can not learn to overcome things. You can not learn to become stronger without suffering. You can NOT learn what PERSONAL PROGRESS means.

(18-01-2014 02:18 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  It doesn't have to be the piles of dead bodies of innocents...
it is your personal opinion and how do you know that it is true opinion?
Nature can be cruel. We are subjects to natural laws. We have to learn to deal with it and to OVERCOME it and then we can become like Gods. This what Gods do - They rule the nature.
We are learning.
Innocent victims will have their rewards. May be their rewards will be even better and more sweet than yours.
Innocent victims passed their trials and they became stronger. Their lives were not in vain as some atheists BELIEVE.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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18-01-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Best theistic defense? I will give you the best Christian answer I've come across:

"That is not the point. You are desperately searching for flaws and they do not matter. You should search within your heart and try to call out for Jesus, he will be waiting for you."

I've been wondering the same too. I haven't heard anything better. Alla's argument is sadly disappointing.

It all comes down to that after all, doesn't it? And when they can't justify it anymore, you get all the "it doesn't matter".

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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18-01-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 02:18 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  No that's not true at all... God can make the world without suffering if he wishes to but he doesn't.
You can not become stronger without overcoming something. To overcome something is not always easy thing to do.
God can make world without suffering but then you can not learn to overcome things. You can not learn to become stronger without suffering. You can NOT learn what PERSONAL PROGRESS means.

If there is not suffering in the world then what is there left to overcome? Consider

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
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18-01-2014, 02:37 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:33 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  If there is not suffering in the world then what is there left to overcome? Consider

Advocating for the suffering in this world is not very humane or logical. The real question is why must there be suffering in the world?

A deity that allows suffering is clearly not a benevolent being.
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18-01-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:33 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  If there is not suffering in the world then what is there left to overcome? Consider
nothing.

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:05 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Read my starting post above - you didn't explain it.
The example of the bubonic plague - and many other examples, we cannot do something about it and its not directly humans fault.

Did we CREATE a treatment? Did we find a way to FIGHT this evil(enemy)?
If yes, then we are PROGRESSING.
To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing. It gives us endless opportunities to progress and to be kind and compassionate to others.

Alla, come on now! Do you really see how what you say can get folks here like me ticked off? Someone gave an example of a natural situation created by the supposed God, that brings horrible suffering and pain to countless innocent people and children, and you call being subject to these natural laws as a "blessing"!

Rethink and read this over and over until it clicks with you please...please!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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18-01-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  When we do all we can to learn natural laws we become like Gods
I don't want to be like the Christian, Jewish or Muslim gods, they are evil cunts!
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18-01-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:44 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Alla, come on now! Do you really see how what you say can get folks here like me ticked off? Someone gave an example of a natural situation created by the supposed God, that brings horrible suffering and pain to countless innocent people and children, and you call being subject to these natural laws as a "blessing"!

Rethink and read this over and over until it clicks with you please...please!
Oh, I know how it sounds. When I have my trials I don't see them as great blessings or blessings at all. I am not looking forward to have new trials. I hope that next trial will be the easy one. I am weak mortal. And I am a chicken.
But when I do have trial I KNOW what I have to DO. And I see that I am learning something new and true. To learn something new and true is a blessing to me. Any knowledge of the truth is a blessing to me.
Most of the time I fully understand what I have learned when trial is over. Clap

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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18-01-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:13 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  The best explanation for evil that I have ever heard took place in an argument with a deist, not a theist. She pointed out that the nasty state of the world would support a deity who is capricious and malevolent. Evil can thus be explained as part of the nature of god. It is to be expected.

I still haven't thought of any evidence based method of disproving this, but at the very least I think it makes belief in god irrelevant, since he is not morally obligated to care for anyone.

The best explanation for evil and suffering is the natural one. No freakin' gods need apply.

The "problem of evil" utterly disappears when the childish notion of a benevolent god is discarded.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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