Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 03:49 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't believe this opinion is true.

"I don't believe this opinion is true". I guess can give this answer to any question possible without an argument and get away with it.

Well you know, everybody in the world is wrong but me, I just happen to be the exception who is always right; nobody else can see it is all.

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18-01-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 03:51 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:49 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  "I don't believe this opinion is true". I guess can give this answer to any question possible without an argument and get away with it.

Well you know, everybody in the world is wrong but me, I just happen to be the exception who is always right; nobody else can see it is all.

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18-01-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:13 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  The best explanation for evil that I have ever heard took place in an argument with a deist, not a theist. She pointed out that the nasty state of the world would support a deity who is capricious and malevolent. Evil can thus be explained as part of the nature of god. It is to be expected.

I still haven't thought of any evidence based method of disproving this, but at the very least I think it makes belief in god irrelevant, since he is not morally obligated to care for anyone.
That is the best explanation if this god we can't disprove does exist. I've heard many honest theologian types admit they can't answer the question, and defer to Paul in Romans 9 when he asks who man is to question God. Some unknown greater good is often implied, as in the Joseph story. Bottom line is Christian theodicy has been bereft of an answer for over 2,000 years and counting. I just chuckle when Joe evangelical starts hyperventilating about free will.
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18-01-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 03:51 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Well you know, everybody in the world is wrong but me, I just happen to be the exception who is always right; nobody else can see it is all.
Really? WOW!

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18-01-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 12:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing.
Easy for you to say as you're not the starving child who just lost his mother in africa.

So true.
I have an aunt subject to severe Alzheimer's & used to work on a neurology ward. I now work as a haematologist-oncologist and have a family member with cancer and treated hundreds of people over the last 10 years, many of which went through extreme suffering and in certain cases all treatments failed or even made things worse.

Only someone seriously deluded would say this a blessing when subject to "natural laws." Of course if all these people were magically healed I would be unemployed, so I'm blessed. Only someone deluded & solipsistic would think in such a twisted way exploiting other peoples suffering as their blessing. Its like the only survivor of an aircrash calling it a miracle they survived and how God loved them (and didn't give a shit about everyone else)

Then again if one of the astronauts survived the challenger space shuttle explosion they might have a point.............but they didn't. Damn those natural laws of physics !!! What a bitch ! (Not Alla the blogger, but natural laws of physics...and Allah Akbar ! )

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18-01-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:05 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Read my starting post above - you didn't explain it.
The example of the bubonic plague - and many other examples, we cannot do something about it and its not directly humans fault.

Did we CREATE a treatment? Did we find a way to FIGHT this evil(enemy)?
If yes, then we are PROGRESSING.
To be a subject to trials/natural laws is a blessing. It gives us endless opportunities to progress and to be kind and compassionate to others.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh....we created a treatment like a few centuries later after millions died !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...and not thanks to your holy Ghost !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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18-01-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 12:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 12:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Easy for you to say as you're not the starving child who just lost his mother in africa.
I had, have and will have different trials.

My trial was learning how to study science, critical thinking, rationality and scepticism to free oneself from false dogma's like Jesus mythology, Mormonism & Christianity ! (or specifically Judaism in my case)
I succeeded ! Took a bloody long time - 7 years as an orthodox believer, time with the holy ghost and believing responses like Alla ! I even preached intelligent design to people from the Discovery institute - what a trial to remove this false pseudoscience from my consciousness !!!

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:Alla wrote
Innocent victims passed their trials and they became stronger. Their lives were not in vain as some atheists BELIEVE.

Many of those innocent victims did not pass their trials and became weaker.
Eg in the holocaust many sincerely believing jews did lose their faith, become weaker and die cruel deaths. (same applies to Gulags or choose your atrocity whether naturally occurring or man made)
According to Christianity not only did these previous believers get tortured & die cruel deaths - they go to Hell !
...and Christians call that God's Justice.

...can it seriously get more deluded than this ???

In any case - how do you know these innocent lives are not in vain ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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18-01-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:08 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 12:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  I had, have and will have different trials.
No you haven't... you aren't born with cancer,you haven't been killed in a conflict of military.. these types of sufferings can never be made up for.. and in fact suffering shouldn't even exist if the world actually had a loving God.

Quite right Indian Atheist - I don't think Alla was a slave in a Gulag, then starved until she became so weak that she could barely talk as her mouth was parched from dryness and inflamed with sores & infection followed by dysentery, diarreaoha and death.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:13 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  The best explanation for evil that I have ever heard took place in an argument with a deist, not a theist. She pointed out that the nasty state of the world would support a deity who is capricious and malevolent. Evil can thus be explained as part of the nature of god. It is to be expected.

I still haven't thought of any evidence based method of disproving this, but at the very least I think it makes belief in god irrelevant, since he is not morally obligated to care for anyone.

'Dark Phoenix' The argument against theism from natural evils DOES NOT APPLY to Deism or Spinozism or impersonal notions of a creator deity. It only applies to a personal God such as found in Mormonism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other traditions that run along similar thought patterns (some Eastern religions and many other minor religions also have the idea of a personal loving god)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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