Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 01:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 01:08 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  No you haven't... you aren't born with cancer,you haven't been killed in a conflict of military.. these types of sufferings can never be made up for.. and in fact suffering shouldn't even exist if the world actually had a loving God.
I have different trials. and I don't know what is awaiting for me.
if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger. Strength always comes with overcoming something.
Becoming stronger = PROGRESSION.
PROGRESSION = GOOD

Alla - often there are long periods of stasis with no progression eg the example I gave on the Bubonic Plague. You are telling me that the 1000 years prior to some progress were a complete waste of time & grotesque amount of needless suffering with millions dead in a horrific way ! (bubonic plague is a particularly nasty way to die)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:['undergroundp'
"That is not the point. You are desperately searching for flaws and they do not matter. You should search within your heart and try to call out for Jesus, he will be waiting for you."
I am searching for flaws...but they do matter.
Christianity is a flaw. Jesus as a deity sacrificed by Daddy is a Flaw. It matters very much.

Quote:I've been wondering the same too. I haven't heard anything better. Alla's argument is sadly disappointing.
True

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:14 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 01:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  I have different trials. and I don't know what is awaiting for me.
if suffering doesn't exist then you can not learn how to become stronger. Strength always comes with overcoming something.
Becoming stronger = PROGRESSION.
PROGRESSION = GOOD

I used to think like this. This is common Mormon ideology.

It came apart for me when I applied it to situations of extreme suffering. Many people die of AIDS all around the world, with absolutely no possibility of overcoming it or learning from the experience. Their suffering lacks purpose, since it cannot be defeated. Likewise, the suffering of kidnapped sexual slaves, which in some cases in the United States have been reported as lasting decades, is excruciating and humiliating beyond a moments basic understanding. As Christopher Hitchens once pointed out, surely the victims of this ghastly fate cry out to god for deliverance every day and yet are not rescued. We can all imagine how they must have begged and pleaded for their lives and dignity, while they were shown absolutely no mercy at all. To say that this is necessary, and even god given, as a trial and that it is merely an opportunity for the victim to overcome and "progress" is a disgusting and heartless concept. If overcoming was the point, god would not allow such horrific torture to go on. As anyone of faith knows, he has more than enough knowledge and power to make it so. What are we to infer about his character considering that he does not intervene?

It is inescapable to notice that this "progression" often comes with the resistance of the faithful. Jehovah's Witnesses decline life saving blood transfusions. Christian fundamentalists oppose stem cell research. The Catholic church continues to oppose life saving condom use most especially in Africa. Need I continue?

I don't think God is good. I think people try to be good despite his followers.

You don't need to continue - you said well. If someone doesn't understand your point 'Dark Phoenix' then they cannot progress, If they cannot progress they cannot be good. If they cannot be good then they must be evil (well callous & insensitive).

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:'Foxen' The real question is why must there be suffering in the world?
We know the answer to this from biology, pathology, sociology, ecology and many other ...ologies except theology.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 07:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:51 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Well you know, everybody in the world is wrong but me, I just happen to be the exception who is always right; nobody else can see it is all.
Really? WOW!

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18-01-2014, 08:03 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:'Chaos' said Yes, Worshipful Master. Bowing
Worship Slaves

Now your worshipping as a slave you can become a God.
Great theistic logic.
Worship Slaves

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:'Alla' wrote
Most of the time I fully understand what I have learned when trial is over. Clap
....and most of the time others have failed and end up in hell Weeping
What a selfish solipsistic worldview with extreme cognitive dissonance.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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Free Thought
The cartoon character needs to hit herself MUCH harder - cognitive dissonance is very tricky to overcome !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-01-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 08:06 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Alla' wrote
Most of the time I fully understand what I have learned when trial is over. Clap
....and most of the time others have failed and end up in hell Weeping
What a selfish solipsistic worldview with extreme cognitive dissonance.
who failed? give some examples please
when you have trials do you fight or you give up? don't you learn anything during the trials?

English is not my native language.
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18-01-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 03:48 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Are you asking if we created a treatment for bubonic plague?
Not for fucking centuries, at least an effective one. And even now our treatments are ineffective after roughly 24 hours after initial symptoms.
Then we didn't find this part of the truth yet. We have to continue to fight. We fight - we look for solutions - we grow.


(18-01-2014 03:48 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  And I'm pretty sure bubonic plague was never ever a 'blessing' to anybody, what with the diseases' habit of rotting your body from the inside and out.
Nobody says that illness is a blessing. If you noticed I call it EVIL or ENEMY which we have to FIGHT and OVERCOME. But an opportunity TO FIGHT(trial) will help us to grow, to progress. Opportunity to grow/progress is a blessing

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