Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
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18-01-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:21 PM)Foxen Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.

Do not use that as an excuse. Other than minor grammar mistakes, what you write is perfectly understandable. Language is not the problem.
I don't use language as an excuse. I just confirmed that English is not my native language.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 01:18 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 11:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Justice is not wrong thing to do. It is right thing to do. Worship idols and sacrifice own children to those idols is evil.
Would it be right to kill all the non Christians, kill those "evil" people who do not worship Jesus?
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19-01-2014, 01:58 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 10:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 09:06 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  You said that in reference to disease, creating the implication that diseases are 'trials' and thus by your own correlation, 'blessings'.

Either you have a poor grasp of the English language or a memory problem.

My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.
OK, I want to be more clear. Diseases are evil/enemy. Trials are opportunities to grow and fight evil/enemy. This opportunities to grow can be called blessings.

These 'evils' and 'enemies' of yours provide the opportunities to grow and 'fight evil/enemies' to begin with, you realise that don't you?

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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19-01-2014, 02:43 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 01:58 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 10:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  My native languages are Ukrainian and Russian.
OK, I want to be more clear. Diseases are evil/enemy. Trials are opportunities to grow and fight evil/enemy. This opportunities to grow can be called blessings.

These 'evils' and 'enemies' of yours provide the opportunities to grow and 'fight evil/enemies' to begin with, you realise that don't you?
Yes, I do realize that. If there was no Devil(EVIL/ENEMY) it wouldn't be temptations. If there were no temptations Adam wouldn't fall. If Adam didn't fall he would never have eternal progression.
It must be an opposition in all things.

Do you know how someone can progress without overcoming something? I don't.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 02:46 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 01:18 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Justice is not wrong thing to do. It is right thing to do. Worship idols and sacrifice own children to those idols is evil.
Would it be right to kill all the non Christians, kill those "evil" people who do not worship Jesus?
no, it wouldn't. non Christian is not = evil.
do harm to others is evil.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 02:47 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:43 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 01:58 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  These 'evils' and 'enemies' of yours provide the opportunities to grow and 'fight evil/enemies' to begin with, you realise that don't you?
Yes, I do realize that. If there was no Devil(EVIL/ENEMY) it wouldn't be temptations. If there were no temptations Adam wouldn't fall. If Adam didn't fall he would never have eternal progression.
It must be an opposition in all things.

Do you know how someone can progress without overcoming something? I don't.

So you admit that, by extension, these supposedly evil things are in fact good things?

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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19-01-2014, 02:57 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:47 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 02:43 AM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, I do realize that. If there was no Devil(EVIL/ENEMY) it wouldn't be temptations. If there were no temptations Adam wouldn't fall. If Adam didn't fall he would never have eternal progression.
It must be an opposition in all things.

Do you know how someone can progress without overcoming something? I don't.

So you admit that, by extension, these supposedly evil things are in fact good things?
evil is always evil. It is never good. But evil/bad can be used for achieving something good.
Pain is evil. But it can help me to understand that not having pain is good. And it can help me to develop divine quality - compassion towards others and desire to help them. Helping others brings joy.
And men are that they may have joy.

English is not my native language.
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19-01-2014, 03:00 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2014 03:04 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 02:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  it is your personal opinion and how do you know that it is true opinion
Because it doesn't have piles of dead bodies of innocents.
Quote:Nature can be cruel.
The only one who's being cruel is your God who refuses lift his finger to save the children who die of starvation everyday.
Quote:We have to learn to deal with it and to OVERCOME it
HOW DO YOU OVERCOME DEATH ? and what the hell is ANYONE going to learn from being raped and getting their lives killed in a fucking War ? Censored
Quote:and then we can become like Gods. This what Gods do
I don't want to be a God who condones suffering.. that's a fate worse than death.

Quote:Innocent victims will have their rewards.
Bullshit.. that doesn't justify any atrocity ever done.,, that's like saying :-

"Timmy i'm really sorry you lost your mom to cancer have this ice cream!" feel better ?
Quote:Innocent victims passed their trials and they became stronger. Their lives were not in vain as some atheists BELIEVE.

GETTING RAPED IS A TRIAL ?
GETTING KILLED IS A TRIAL ?
HAVING CANCER IS A TRIAL ?
WATCHING YOUR LOVED ONES DIE IS A TRIAL ?
LIVING YOUR WHOLE LIFE IN POVERTY IS A TRIAL ?

What kind of sick disgusting rationalization is this ? whatever point you're trying to make its morally REPUGNANT! [Image: 34snn0j.gif]
(18-01-2014 11:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  If we believe that Devil is real we believe that he wants opposite of what God wants.God wants us to progress.
WOW.... wait wait!! SO lemme get this Straight..

God's "Progress/Master plan" involves :-

1) World Hunger
2) Global Poverty
3) Genocide
4) Infant mortality in both animals&humans
5) Mass Extinctions of species
6) Human trafficking&prostitution
7) All deadly diseases and Viruses
8) Gender inequality issues
9) Children Born with Cancer&AIDS

And Satan/Lucyfir/Beelzebub actually wants to END World hunger,Global poverty and all these horrible horrible things ? Banana_zorroBanana_zorro

Where can i sign up for the Satanic Church already?
Quote:Devil doesn't want us to progress.
Good! I don't want that kind of progress anyway! HAIL THE DEVIL!Worship Slaves.
Quote:remove children form the evil doers to a better place/environment
YEAH right that's how you're gonna justify Biblical slavery eh i see.Consider
Quote:Justice is this: kill the killers
That's not Justice.. that's iron age barbarism pure&simple.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-01-2014, 03:36 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 02:57 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-01-2014 02:47 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  So you admit that, by extension, these supposedly evil things are in fact good things?
evil is always evil. It is never good. But evil/bad can be used for achieving something good.
Pain is evil. But it can help me to understand that not having pain is good. And it can help me to develop divine quality - compassion towards others and desire to help them. Helping others brings joy.
And men are that they may have joy.

I will never understand how people can think that the world works with a Black and White morality.
Even when I was a very young child when Black and White morality is expected, I saw the world Grey & Grey.

Things are not always absolutely 'evil', nor are things always absolutely 'good'.
I'll hijack your example of pain.
Pain is bad because, well, it hurts, everybody, including children know this once they put their hand to the turned on stove when mommy and daddy aren't looking. However, people who don't feel pain have been known to die from even minor injuries because they are unaware of it ever occurring and dying by it's consequences (often infection in unnoticed wounds). Pain is in a way good because it allows us to survive, to react to physical harm and threat.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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19-01-2014, 04:04 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  The only one who's being cruel is your God who refuses lift his finger to save the children who die of starvation everyday.
He wants you do to this first. He wants you to be kind by DOING something kind. Then you can learn something.
Please don't take this personally, because you may be one of those people who actually do help those poor children.
Food is here on Earth. Adults are here on Earth. We can blame God that children are hungry. Or we can blame ourselves for this first.


(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  HOW DO YOU OVERCOME DEATH ?
We are not required to overcome this enemy. Why? Because Jesus did it.
That is why you, I and all those poor children will live again. It calls resurrection of the dead.
How to overcome death? By not breaking even one law of God. This is what Jesus did. He committed no sin.

(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  what the hell is ANYONE going to learn from being raped and getting their lives killed in a fucking War ?
Nothing. These kind of trials are not required to learn something and to progress. It is not necessary to do harm to others in order for us to learn something. We have plenty of trials (natural causes or accidents) so we can learn and progress.
But because people have moral agency they choose to do evil and because of their actions someone can become innocent victim. That is why to do evil to others are sins. To hurt someone by accident is not a sin. To hurt someone protecting your own life or freedom is not a sin.
But to hurt someone intentionally is a sin and it has to be accountability.


(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I don't want to be a God who condones suffering.. that's a fate worse than death.
I totally understand you. I am from the same world as you are and I know what it means to suffer. have you ever had a surgery (appendicitis) without anesthesia? I did. I was 14 years old. They did local anesthesia that only helped when they cut my skin. The rest was a real nightmare. But I know this kind of pain now.
A child can see nurse that makes shots as an evil person who condones suffering. But nurse knows that it is necessary to suffer now.


(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  ALLA:Innocent victims will have their rewards".
Bullshit.. that doesn't justify any atrocity ever done.,, that's like saying :-
"Timmy i'm really sorry you lost your mom to cancer have this ice cream!" feel better ?
I agree that this BS. But that is not what I was talking about. Reward is RESTORATION of all GOOD things only in a better, higher glory(level).
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  GETTING RAPED IS A TRIAL ?
yes, but as I said it is not required. But evil people use their moral agency.
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  GETTING KILLED IS A TRIAL ?
yes, but from the hand of an evil person is not required.
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  HAVING CANCER IS A TRIAL ?
WATCHING YOUR LOVED ONES DIE IS A TRIAL ?
LIVING YOUR WHOLE LIFE IN POVERTY IS A TRIAL ?
yes, yes, yes.
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 11:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  If we believe that Devil is real we believe that he wants opposite of what God wants.God wants us to progress.
WOW.... wait wait!! SO lemme get this Straight..

God's "Progress/Master plan" involves :-

1) World Hunger
no. He gave us this earth that produces food and he gave us physical bodies that we can cook. If we have poor and hungry it is our fault. Fault of those who do not give opportunities to others to progress. fault of those who have power but use it in evil way. fault of those who don't care about others.
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  2) Global Poverty
3) Genocide
the same thing. It is not required, it is evil that we(humans) create when we use our moral agency.
(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  4) Infant mortality in both animals&humans
we are subjects to natural laws. This way we can learn things by having trials and it will be not even one human to blame for it.

(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  5) Mass Extinctions of species
6) Human trafficking&prostitution
7) All deadly diseases and Viruses
8) Gender inequality issues
the same thing. We are responsible for all this. God doesn't force us to do all this. Except diseases and viruses. Those are things that no human can be blamed for. Unless someone intentionally makes someone sick.

(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  9) Children Born with Cancer&AIDS
cancer - the same thing. AIDS. How do children get AIDS?

How can you progress without having trials? can you answer this simple question?
Please answer this question. I really want to learn this from you.

English is not my native language.
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