Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-01-2014, 04:16 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 08:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:06 PM)Baruch Wrote:  ....and most of the time others have failed and end up in hell Weeping
What a selfish solipsistic worldview with extreme cognitive dissonance.
who failed? give some examples please
when you have trials do you fight or you give up? don't you learn anything during the trials?

There are many people who completely lost their faith in God following "the trials of being tortured, raped & enslaved" I can give you many examples - I don't think these people failed anything but realized how naïve & futile believing in God really is when He would be the master torturer responsible for all this if He existed.
However in your world view Alla these people failed their tests because they are atheists and despise the notion of a loving creator.

Eg#1 A family member imprisoned in a South Iraq desert Gulag during Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr reign (Saddams predecessor) just for being Jewish & accused of trying to leave Iraq (...well she was trying to leave) The pain & cruelty inflicted in this place makes her bitter to the very thought that there could be a "God with a plan who loves you" and she is an atheist. Alla - SHe is an example of an innocent victim which "failed the test" and not progressed due renouncing the existence of God & gave up in any spirituality/theism/religion ?

Eg #2 Myself. I used to be a religious theist, thinking I was directly inspired by God, praying and studying the holy scriptures daily. I even believed your doctrines such as discussed in this forum/thread. According to your logic I failed the tests and now antagonistic to the very notion of a personal creator with its delusional holy ghosts.
My crime ? Studying logic, reason, philosophy & science - how to critically appraise medical research papers and when you apply any of these disciplines to the bible it falls apart as utterly irrational in most places both morally, historically, philosophically, scientifically........need I go on.

EG #3 I can give you dozens of case histories rather than generalizations such as my original post "innocent people in the holocaust (or name your atrocity) lost their faith & failed any religious test)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 03:36 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I will never understand how people can think that the world works with a Black and White morality.
Even when I was a very young child when Black and White morality is expected, I saw the world Grey & Grey.
I agree with you.
(19-01-2014 03:36 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Things are not always absolutely 'evil', nor are things always absolutely 'good'.
Exactly, not always. But some things can be only white and some things can be only black.

(19-01-2014 03:00 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I'll hijack your example of pain.
Pain is bad because, well, it hurts, everybody, including children know this once they put their hand to the turned on stove when mommy and daddy aren't looking. However, people who don't feel pain have been known to die from even minor injuries because they are unaware of it ever occurring and dying by it's consequences (often infection in unnoticed wounds). Pain is in a way good because it allows us to survive, to react to physical harm and threat.
I agree. Sometimes things are actually neutral. And thanks for reminding me that pain can help us to survive.
But our intentions make things either evil or good. For example, to let someone to suffer(painful but important shots/immunization) is absolutely good thing. But stick in someone needles for the sake of having fun is pure evil.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:25 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:'Alla wrote:
don't you learn anything during the trials?

Nope - some people don't learn anything from the trials !
I've managed people and taught pharmacology/medicine with colleagues and some don't learn much at all & even forget and regress (become worse - hey not from my teaching Smartass )and need to be fired from practice. They failed the tests. They are booted ! EVEN if they try hard & with sincerity.

Same with any religious teachings or "spiritual progression"

I remember when I was teaching "intelligent design" theism some people failed the tests and just didn't get it and kept trying to argue with me and give examples of botched up design and I would try and correct them - but these people just could not progress spiritually & religiously with their relationship with God.
Little did I know 7 years later I would become one of those people ! Smartass

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:33 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote: ALLA wrote
Nobody says that illness is a blessing. If you noticed I call it EVIL or ENEMY which we have to FIGHT and OVERCOME. But an opportunity TO FIGHT(trial) will help us to grow, to progress. Opportunity to grow/progress is a blessing


So those survivors of Bubonic plague that had natural immunity - they did nothing to fight or overcome the plague because they automatically had immunity (not develop any medicine) and because they didn't progress by overcoming - are they just randomly selected survivors ? Seems that the only credentials required for immunity is your geographical location and winning the genetic lottery for correct immune response during times of extreme genetic selection pressure after many immune systems failed & the persons died.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 08:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  who failed? give some examples please
when you have trials do you fight or you give up? don't you learn anything during the trials?
There are many people who completely lost their faith in God following "the trials of being tortured, raped & enslaved" I can give you many examples - I don't think these people failed anything but realized how naïve & futile believing in God really is when He would be the master torturer responsible for all this if He existed.
However in your world view Alla these people failed their tests because they are atheists and despise the notion of a loving creator.
Baruch, if you read my previous post to you I said that these people didn't fail anything. To pass the test you have to fight to overcome IF you can. If you can't to overcome you didn't fail anything.
It is not required to suffer from evil people and their evil deeds in order to learn something. If they lost faith who can blame them. But if they start to do evil to others then it will be their wrong choice. But still they can be forgiven because the trauma from horrible experience can effect them in a way that they can not really control their actions.

(19-01-2014 04:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg#1 A family member imprisoned in a South Iraq desert Gulag during Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr reign (Saddams predecessor) just for being Jewish & accused of trying to leave Iraq (...well she was trying to leave) The pain & cruelty inflicted in this place makes her bitter to the very thought that there could be a "God with a plan who loves you" and she is an atheist. Alla - SHe is an example of an innocent victim which "failed the test" and not progressed due renouncing the existence of God & gave up in any spirituality/theism/religion ?
God does not judge our believes. He judges our hearts. We don't have to have faith for the sake of faith. Atheist can progress in this life without having faith in God. If Atheist lives honorable and honest life and does kind things to others he passed his test.

(19-01-2014 04:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg #2 Myself. I used to be a religious theist, thinking I was directly inspired by God, praying and studying the holy scriptures daily. I even believed your doctrines such as discussed in this forum/thread. According to your logic I failed the tests and now antagonistic to the very notion of a personal creator with its delusional holy ghosts.
You know now that it is not what I believe.
(19-01-2014 04:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  My crime ? Studying logic, reason, philosophy & science - how to critically appraise medical research papers and when you apply any of these disciplines to the bible it falls apart as utterly irrational in most places both morally, historically, philosophically, scientifically........need I go on.
it is not a crime. To be honest with yourself is never a crime. To do evil to others intentionally is a crime.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:39 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:33 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote: ALLA wrote
Nobody says that illness is a blessing. If you noticed I call it EVIL or ENEMY which we have to FIGHT and OVERCOME. But an opportunity TO FIGHT(trial) will help us to grow, to progress. Opportunity to grow/progress is a blessing


So those survivors of Bubonic plague that had natural immunity - they did nothing to fight or overcome the plague because they automatically had immunity (not develop any medicine) and because they didn't progress by overcoming - are they just randomly selected survivors ? Seems that the only credentials required for immunity is your geographical location and winning the genetic lottery for correct immune response during times of extreme genetic selection pressure after many immune systems failed & the persons died.
When you can not fight you don't have to. You will always have plenty of other things that you can fight and overcome or endure to the end.
But scientists have lots of work to do/to overcome so we may all progress even more and help more people.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:41 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote: ALLA WROTE;
(18-01-2014 07:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Many of those innocent victims did not pass their trials and became weaker.
In what way they didn't pass their trials and became weaker? Explain please.
people not passing trials because...losing faith is a loving creator. I know this from personal testimony and peoples actions for example antagonism to any form of belief in God being irrational. (see previous post for actual examples including myself)

Quote:
(18-01-2014 07:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg in the holocaust many sincerely believing jews did lose their faith, become weaker and die cruel deaths. (same applies to Gulags or choose your atrocity whether naturally occurring or man made)
How do you know they lost their faith? how do you know they failed the test by loosing their faith? how could they fail the test if they didn't have an opportunity to fight back? point of the test is to fight and overcome. But when we CAN'T we don't fail anything.
So Alla - your saying when we fail the test we really pass the test because when we "Cant" we don't fail anything.
Alla - please look into something called "the law of contradiction" logic 101

Quote:
(18-01-2014 07:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  ...can it seriously get more deluded than this ???
I agree it is deluded to believe that innocent victims are going to hell.
Innocent victims will have their rewards and their lives and suffering were not in vain.
But these innocent victim I discussed failed their test. Are you saying they are now guilty because they failed the test and NOW go to Hell !!!

Quote:
(18-01-2014 07:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  In any case - how do you know these innocent lives are not in vain ?
Because God gave revelations that support my statement.
[/quote]
You mean you assume God gave revelations.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 04:52 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(19-01-2014 04:25 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Alla wrote:
don't you learn anything during the trials?

Baruch wrote: Nope - some people don't learn anything from the trials !
I've managed people and taught pharmacology/medicine with colleagues and some don't learn much at all & even forget and regress (become worse - hey not from my teaching Smartass )and need to be fired from practice. They failed the tests. They are booted ! EVEN if they try hard & with sincerity.
I never said that we all learn but I said that we ALL have OPPORTUNITIES to learn.
And if someone failed then God is their Judge. Only He knows why they failed.
And by the way God is not ONLY Justice He is also Mercy.
No one will be only punished and not have any rewards. Because most of the people do good deeds and do mistakes/fail at the same time.
We all will be accountable when we don't repent but in the end we all will have rewards that we deserve.

(19-01-2014 04:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Same with any religious teachings or "spiritual progression"
I remember when I was teaching "intelligent design" theism some people failed the tests and just didn't get it and kept trying to argue with me and give examples of botched up design and I would try and correct them - but these people just could not progress spiritually & religiously with their relationship with God.
Little did I know 7 years later I would become one of those people ! Smartass
Anybody can progress spiritually even atheists. The only people who can not grow spiritually are those who do evil to others. The more evil they do the darker their souls become. Until there is no light in them any more.
I think you are very spiritual person. Many atheists here sound to me like spiritual people.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 05:38 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
Quote:Alla Said :How do children get AIDS?

Children get AIDS because God gave it to them, that's how.

The particulars are it is passed from the mothers blood to the foetus because HIV can cross the placenta. (another one of Gods botched designs to allow infections to spread this way)

Alternatively children got AIDS from contaminated blood transfusions for haemophilia, Leukaemia or other conditions (another of Gods botched designs) - these are generally unlikely these days due to screening but during those years of "no progression in screening" many children needlessly suffered.

Alternatively children are raped by someone with HIV or end up sharing needles when giving themselves IV drugs to cope with the pain & suffering God gives them.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2014, 05:45 AM
RE: Natural evil - whats the best theistic defence you have come across...?
(18-01-2014 08:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-01-2014 03:49 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  "I don't believe this opinion is true". I guess can give this answer to any question possible without an argument and get away with it.

you said:"It's a problem that only exists in your worldview."
I said:"I don't believe this opinion is true".
where is the question?

P.S. Your questions were answered?

Well, I was talking in general. I can give this answer to any argument and get away with it.
In this discussion we are not interested in what people believe. If you want to make a point, you have to use arguments and not just say "oh well, it's true because I believe it to be".

If you don't believe my opinion to be true, explain why, because I presented an argument that you are refusing to address.

If suffering is needed to overcome suffering, God can simply take suffering out of the equation and all problems are solved. If there is no suffering to overcome, then no suffering is needed as a trial.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: