Naturalism = Nihilism?
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24-07-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
My point is, if this sense of morality that I have(my conscience, or "empathy") is merely an illusion, then why should I listen to it?? why not do the rational thing and throw it away?

Why should I hand a guy his wallet back, after he's dropped it, and I've picked it up noticing $100?

It seems like insanity to choose my go with my conscience (arbitrary illusion) and hand it back, over the hard reality (an extra 100$!)
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24-07-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
Why do you always assume it rational to throw morality away?


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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24-07-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
because, from what everyone is telling me: it is an illusion!

the same way we should throw away illusory religious beliefs, and other silly superstitions!!
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24-07-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(24-07-2014 04:19 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  My point is, if this sense of morality that I have(my conscience, or "empathy") is merely an illusion, then why should I listen to it?? why not do the rational thing and throw it away?
I think this is phrased backwards.

The way I think of it is this.
I lack a belief in morality. I lack a belief that actions can inherently be classified as right vs wrong.

This is my starting point.

For me to go down the morality path:
1. What compelling evidence is there that morality exists?
2. What compelling evidence and logic is there, that I ought to have an obligation towards moral acts and an obligation away from immoral acts? (Basically, why should I be concerned with developing a moral belief structure for myself to be voluntarily constrained by?)
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24-07-2014, 07:06 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 07:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(24-07-2014 03:52 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  1. You people just keep repeating the same crap!
"Empathy is built in by Evolution", Yes! I understand that we have evolved a sense of empathy..!!!
But what I am talking about is morality!

(24-07-2014 06:26 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  What does this have to do with my question you quoted? why not stick to the topic?

2. I do agree with you though! we should do the right thing because of "empathy"(though I referred to it as "keeping my conscience happy")

But what I think I've realized is that, this is not rational at all, to choose empathy>just yourself; is really a type of "faith".

A Faith that I think we should hold, and we should be honest about...

You seem to be unable to keep what you've just said straight, and follow YOUR OWN argument. You've CONTRADICTED yourself up there. First you say there is a difference between empathy and morality, then you say "keeping YOUR conscience happy" IS (the very same fucking) empathy. So what the fuck are you even talking about ? Your *conscience* was "formed" (ie you LEARNED what you now consider to be good and evil) in the culture you grew up in, and what you came to value, and what not. There are REASONS for not keeping the wallet. Honesty promotes group cooperation and cohesion. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is NOT a religious axiom. It's just common sense. (And non-belief leads to nothing, and other than asserting it to be true, you have in no way demonstrated it).

Your OP makes no sense what so ever. IF you *need* belief to keep Nihilism at bay, you're out of luck. That's the most absurd Utilitarian argument I've ever heard. Religion is god and necessary because it does or functions as something "useful" ? Give me a break.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2014, 10:08 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 10:11 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Stevil
No there is no empirical evidence that Morality is real....
But I do believe we all have a conscience, and this is what I'm appealing to.....




@Bucky Ball
you said "empathy" was the same thing as morality, that why I put "empathy" in the quotation marks...
words can have different definitions, and can mean different things in different contexts, I haven't contradicted myself... you're just playing word games


"your *conscience* was "formed" (ie you LEARNED what you now consider to be good and evil) in the culture you grew up in, and what you came to value, and what not"

^ This is nihilism.............



and also, I don't think I have mention the word "religion" once, throughout this thread??
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24-07-2014, 10:39 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 10:57 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(24-07-2014 10:08 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @Stevil
No there is no empirical evidence that Morality is real....
But I do believe we all have a conscience, and this is what I'm appealing to.....
What do you mean by conscience?
Guilt?
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24-07-2014, 11:06 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 11:43 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
Guilt?
Empathy?

- Yes! but, only when we define these turns to mean something more than= "be nice to others for selfish reasons"

Have you never gone out of your way to help someone, other than for selfish reasons? - "Oh, I'll get a reward latter, if I give the man back his wallet"...
Maybe you haven't... and maybe your blind... but I see it everyday!

- If your answer is "yes", then you have a "conscience" and, while you may be able to explain "how it evolved"(when you re-define the word to mean= "be nice to others for selfish reasons") you don't seem to be able to rationally explain how it is anything more than an illusion(one actually working against our own individual self)....

Under naturalism, why should I listen to my conscience? Under naturalism, listening to my conscience now sounds(to me) like insanity!

- If your answer is "no" then you are a monster... but you're at-least consistant, according to (what I now think) the conclusions of naturalism are....
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25-07-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(24-07-2014 11:06 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  Guilt?

Have you never gone out of your way to help someone, other than for selfish reasons?

- If your answer is "no" then you are a monster... but you're at-least consistant, according to (what I now think) the conclusions of naturalism are....
Really?
I'm a monster in your eyes if I have never gone out of my way to help someone for reasons other than selfishness?

And you conclude that naturalism (nihilism?) = monsters?

Did you know that a kitten is a nihilist. It lacks a belief in morality or purpose etc.
Would you consider a kitten to be a monster?
What about the scary Koala bear?, a monster?
Or the ever foreboding Kiwi, a real scary monster!
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25-07-2014, 01:29 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"I'm a monster in your eyes if I have never gone out of my way to help someone for reasons other than selfishness?" - IMO Yes.




Can no one realy notice a difference in this world between egoism and REAL altruism?

Now I'm not saying it's black and white(all one or the other), but can we all at least see a difference between "acting for everyone" and "acting only for myself"?....



many of you will probably state; that ultimately there is no difference, and these are arbitrary divisions... that's fair, I almost thought like this myself for a while... it's the rational conclusion of Naturalism. This is "moral nihilism"


Some argue that there is a difference, and that we should "act for everyone" , but after question they seem to concluded that the only reasons for this are infact also "egotisical"... Despite the word games, this is also moral nihilism



Some do acknowledge the real difference, but explain the REAL altruism away as basically just "bad genes", a disorder.... This is even darker than moral nihilism, but in it's own way, it's quite rational...



So again I ask, can anyone put forward a rational reason as to why one should choose REAL "altruism" over "egoism"?



I'm not, how we evolved seemily apparant "altruism" just for egotisical reasons!! - A Descpitive statment

I'm asking why we should ever choose REAL "altruism" over "egoism"?! - A Prescriptive Statment
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