Naturalism = Nihilism?
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25-07-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 04:46 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @Stevil
my only claim is I feel I have a conscience(which is beyond egoism) and pleasing this conscience seems more important to me then my egotistical preferences. This is not rational, but I feel it is what is right, so I take it as true... yes it's a faith... a faith in myself, and what I really feel deep down.
I also believe that if we are all honest with ourselves, you'll agree, that you also share this faith.
I don't share this faith. We are a minority but there are many moral nihilists around.
I have emotions, I can feel guilt but I don't generally feel guilt very often. I feel no moral obligations to anything. My make informed and reasoned decisions rather than merely going with my gut.

There are many people that FEEL that the Sun orbits the Earth or FEEL that gravity is a force pulling them towards the Earth, or feel that there is a supernatural being looking out for them, loving them, judging them.

If it were upto feelings we would still be living in the superstitious past, sacrificing slaves to the gods. It is great that you have chosen to follow your feelings, but I have gone a different path. I choose to follow the evidence. I can reason why we don't go around killing each other, raping each other even though morality does not exist.

(25-07-2014 04:46 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I have not mentioned any kind of theism, so where is that coming from..?
As ClydeLee has pointed out, you are making some bold claims, throwing out some labels and terminology and really confusing matters.

When you say secular humanism is a joke what is it that you mean?
What is the big deal with a person lacking a belief in gods but feeling compassion and compulsion to help out other humans?

What position would you find to not be a joke?
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25-07-2014, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2014 06:03 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"Is having empathy and learning that there are positive and negative consequences to ones actions considered being brainwashed?"

- Yes, Brainwashing would most certainly be needed to maintain a sense of empathy - when it is working against our own egotistical desires/self preservation/rationality!

Like you nihilists have all said; empathy is ultimately arbitrary... it's just your irrational "feelings" as you say!
SO, if this is this case why value it over something real (such as the $100, in the man wallet)??

One could throw "empathy" away, or ignore it, and just act out of pure rationality.... like the psychopath(no empathy) does. He doesn't care, but nothing is stopping him from PRETENDING to care, he can still pretend to have empathy(when needed) for his own selfish reasons..

he can still follow the law, when it suits him.... But he no reason at all to do the "right" thing, unless it is in his best interest!
And he has no reason to avoid doing the wrong thing, when it suits him!



"I can reason why we don't go around killing each other, raping each other even though morality does not exist."

- the only reasoning you can give is; "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing" (such as give the man back his $100)











"What position would you find to not be a joke?"

If secular humanism will admit that it has its own faith, then it's no longer a joke!
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25-07-2014, 06:06 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 05:57 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  "Is having empathy and learning that there are positive and negative consequences to ones actions considered being brainwashed?"

- Yes, Brainwashing would most certainly be needed to maintain a sense of empathy, when it is going against our own egotistical desires/self preservation!

Like you nihilists have all said; empathy is ultimately arbitrary... it's just your irrational "feelings" as you say!
SO, if this is this case why value it over something real (such as the $100, in the man wallet)??

One could throw "empathy" away, or ignore it, and just act out of pure rationality.... like the psychopath(no empathy) does. He doesn't care, but nothing is stopping him from PRETENDING to care, he can still pretend to have empathy(when needed) for his own selfish reasons..

he can still follow the law, when it suits him.... But he no reason at all to do the "right" thing, unless it is in his best interest!
And he has no reason to avoid doing the wrong thing, when it suits him!



"I can reason why we don't go around killing each other, raping each other even though morality does not exist."

- the only reasoning you can give is; "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing" (such as give the man back his $100)











"What position would you find to not be a joke?"

If secular humanism will admit that it has its own faith, then it's no longer a joke!

Can you explain how psychopathy is rational? I don't follow? And what is irrational about empathy?

For myself, I can't say with confidence that I believe empathy to be 100% arbitrary. It may feel that way....

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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25-07-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 05:57 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  "I can reason why we don't go around killing each other, raping each other even though morality does not exist."

- the only reasoning you can give is; "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing" (such as give the man back his $100)
I could suggest that having a society that respects people's property is in my best interests. I could also argue that being seen as a person whom respects other people's property then this is could also work to my advantage.

This way, within this society, I can go to work, or go on holiday rather than sit at home, holding a gun and guarding my stuff.
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25-07-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(Under Naturalism) Empathy is irrational because it compels us to sacrifice, just so we can "keep our conscience happy"....our conscience has no solid foundation, so why pretend like it does?

It's not consistent, to say that; our sense of "objective morality" has no foundation, but that we should still act on our feelings(which stem from this false belief
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25-07-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(24-07-2014 10:08 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  you said "empathy" was the same thing as morality, that why I put "empathy" in the quotation marks...
words can have different definitions, and can mean different things in different contexts, I haven't contradicted myself... you're just playing word games

"your *conscience* was "formed" (ie you LEARNED what you now consider to be good and evil) in the culture you grew up in, and what you came to value, and what not"

^ This is nihilism.............

Unfortunately for you, that is NOT "Nihilism". So not only are you unable to keep the words you use straight, you don''t even know what the hell your OP question means.

ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnē-/
noun
noun: nihilism

the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
synonyms: skepticism, negativity, cynicism, pessimism; More
disbelief, unbelief, agnosticism, atheism
"she could not accept Bacon's nihilism, his insistence that man is a futile being"
Philosophy
extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.
historical
the doctrine of an extreme Russian revolutionary party circa 1900, which found nothing to approve of in the established social order.

And BTW, nice try at (pathetic) evasion. "Words have different meanings".
You used the same words in the SAME context.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2014, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2014 07:05 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"I could suggest that having a society that respects people's property is in my best interests. I could also argue that being seen as a person whom respects other people's property then this is could also work to my advantage."

I repeat, - the only reasoning you can give is: "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing"

If your trying to argue that doing the socially constructed "right thing", is always what is right for myself, then your as naive as they come!





@ Bucky Ball..... what's your point man? you just here to play word games... or ya got any real points man!??
My English ain't the best... but it should be clear, that it's Moral nihilism(sometimes just called "nihilism" for short) that I'm talking about here..
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25-07-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 06:39 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  "I could suggest that having a society that respects people's property is in my best interests. I could also argue that being seen as a person whom respects other people's property then this is could also work to my advantage."

I repeat, - the only reasoning you can give is: "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing"

If your trying to argue that doing the socially constructed "right thing", is always what is right for myself, then your as naive as they come!





@ Bucky Ball..... what's your point man? you just here to play word games... or ya got any real points man!??
My English ain't the best... but it should be clear, that it's Moral nihilism(sometimes just called "nihilism" for short) that I'm talking about here..

Yeah, it's very clear your language skills are rather poor. I'm not here to "play word games". But correct precise language is how humans communicate. There is no such thing as "moral nihilism", and you have not defined that or demonstrated it, just asserted it. Assertion is proof of nothing. It appears you mean "moral relativism" but it's irrelevant. No matter WHAT the consequences of belief or non-belief to a moral system, or absence of one, you have to suck it up, and face reality. You don't get to cook up a non-existant set of "absolute" morals cuz it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2014, 07:25 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 08:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2014 06:24 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  The theory of evolution alone seems to tell me that any state of mind working against our own personal(material) well-being is not a very natural function of the brain

Wrong again. Evolution promotes the survival of the GROUP, not individuals.

Would you care to explain a possible mechanism for group selection? Consider

It's not about groups or individuals - it's an algorithm about genes and gene pools.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 07:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-07-2014 08:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong again. Evolution promotes the survival of the GROUP, not individuals.

Would you care to explain a possible mechanism for group selection? Consider

It's not about groups or individuals - it's an algorithm about genes and gene pools.

It's about INDIVIDUAL behaviors that promote survival of the group.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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