Naturalism = Nihilism?
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25-07-2014, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2014 09:03 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"you've expressed nothing but dissatisfaction with every bit of commentary we have offered you"
-that's because nobody's presented a satisfactory case against "moral nihilism", at least not to me!


"What are you really looking for?"
I'm sick of people trying to "have their cake and eat it to"... I want the secular humanists, to either acknowledge that a certain kind of faith is needed to sustain their beliefs....
or, to come out and admit moral nihilism, honestly!
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25-07-2014, 09:07 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 08:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 08:24 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But isn't it true that again and again we see individuals in nature sacrificing for the good of the group precisely because in the big picture, it benefits their own chances for survival? Not sacrificing themselves completely, but behaving in what might seem to be a selfless manner in order to gain the benefits that the group has to offer.

Not generally, no.

There is behavior that promotes the welfare of kin - close relatives. They share many genes and it is beneficial to gene survival.

Don't mistake this for any kind of conscious calculation or plan. The genes 'for' choosing to pass on genes out-compete those that don't.

No mistaking for conscious planning. Actually I was thinking more along evolution at the molecular or cellular level, where individual cells tend to cooperate rather than compete. I find it interesting to compare the behavior of organisms at the smallest level to how the more complex versions behave. Take a coral reef for example, or the rainforest. Cooperation between individual organisms seems to be vital for evolution to happen successfully at any given level.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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25-07-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 08:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 08:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not generally, no.

There is behavior that promotes the welfare of kin - close relatives. They share many genes and it is beneficial to gene survival.

Don't mistake this for any kind of conscious calculation or plan. The genes 'for' choosing to pass on genes out-compete those that don't.

That must be why all those soldiers die for their country I guess.

Only humans do that. You are mixing levels of explanation.

If we're talking about evolution, let's talk evolution - not human culture.
Humans are the only creatures that have stepped outside of the strictures of evolution.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 09:07 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 08:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not generally, no.

There is behavior that promotes the welfare of kin - close relatives. They share many genes and it is beneficial to gene survival.

Don't mistake this for any kind of conscious calculation or plan. The genes 'for' choosing to pass on genes out-compete those that don't.

No mistaking for conscious planning. Actually I was thinking more along evolution at the molecular or cellular level, where individual cells tend to cooperate rather than compete. I find it interesting to compare the behavior of organisms at the smallest level to how the more complex versions behave. Take a coral reef for example, or the rainforest. Cooperation between individual organisms seems to be vital for evolution to happen successfully at any given level.

They are not cooperating. Why do you think they are?

Their functioning is complementary, not cooperative. They can more correctly be said to be competing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2014, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2014 09:30 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 08:47 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  The aim of the thread, was not a discussion on how "morality" evolved (descriptive - what "is" - the hard facts of nature)....

I'm asking if there is a True(not arbitrary, not a personal opinion, not a social construct) difference between, what we call right/wrong? (prescriptive - what we "ought" to do)

The answer is no. There is no "capital T" "True" "not arbitrary" anything. EVERY idea exists ONLY in human brains all which have LEARNED what they think they know. There is nothing "external" *out there* despite your desperate NEED for it, to keep your depression and fear at bay. Of course you will find a way to call this psychological FACT one of your many nihilisms. You're not here asking anything.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2014, 09:28 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 09:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  They are not cooperating. Why do you think they are?

Their functioning is complementary, not cooperative. They can more correctly be said to be competing.

Hmmm, you're right I like complementary more in the examples I gave. And yes they are competing of course, but at the same time they share resources in order to benefit themselves.

What about at the cellular level? How much do we understand about how organisms evolved from the single cell into multicellular? There has to be a level of cooperation, some cells opting to have a lesser utility but equally important to the survival of the overall organism. I know, I know.....I need to read more books. Blush

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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25-07-2014, 09:32 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 09:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 08:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That must be why all those soldiers die for their country I guess.

Only humans do that. You are mixing levels of explanation.

If we're talking about evolution, let's talk evolution - not human culture.
Humans are the only creatures that have stepped outside of the strictures of evolution.

What difference does it make which species does it ? Many other species have evolved empathy, and "battle' for their groups.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(25-07-2014 06:39 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I repeat, - the only reasoning you can give is: "because it is not in your best interest to do so".... your "reasoning" will fall apart as soon as it is no longer rational to do the socially constructed "right thing"

If your trying to argue that doing the socially constructed "right thing", is always what is right for myself, then your as naive as they come!
If you really want to have a philosophical conversation you need to moderate yourself, these emotional outbursts and ad hominem attacks e.g. your a monster, your as naive as they come!.

My reasoning does not fall apart. I do not appeal to what is deemed the socially constructed "right thing"
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26-07-2014, 01:00 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
How exactly, does you "reasoning" hold, when it is no longer in ones best interest to do the socially constructed "right thing"?
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26-07-2014, 01:04 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
You want to hold onto some notion of morality, but when asked what is meant by it, you basically just say "be nice to others, because its in your best interest to"............ yeah, sometimes it is! but, sometimes it is not(can you acknowledge this point please?) so what about these situations?
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