Naturalism = Nihilism?
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26-07-2014, 07:57 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(21-07-2014 11:29 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  It appears to me, that atheism/naturalism can only lead us to nihilism, when taken all the way to it's logical conclusions... yet I see almost no one who will acknowledge/address this.

What grounds can we stand upon when we wish to call something "wrong"?

Are right/wrong merely subjective preferences?

Nietzsche,

You wrote: - why will no one address this point?

this is so frustrating, everyone just keeps saying "morality is arbitrary, but it's in your own self interest to follow it!"

I'll tell you what's frustrating. I have addressed it several times and you have had zero to say in response, either to agree or disagree. Apparently you find no fault with what I had to say on the subject. It is obvious to me that you don't really want to hear that there is a rational, objective basis for morality. You seem hell bent on divorcing morality from reason and self interest.

I don't understand your confusion. You have been told by some that morality is subjective and arbitrary. You reject that. You have been told by me that morality is objective and rational and you have neither objected or accepted it. The only other choice is a god given morality which is by definition subjective and arbitrary.

If you want help others no one will stop you.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 08:26 AM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
@nietzsche101, let's say for the sake of argument you are correct, and naturalism is either equivalent to or ultimately leads one to become a moral nihilist.

Also for the sake of argument let's assume (although I disagree) that a moral nihilist is a monster (a judgement you've offered which I find rather arbitrary and perhaps drawn from your fears).

What then? If what you suggest is true, then you likely live on a planet dominated by moral nihilists. Or are you suggesting the religious humans are somehow "safer"?

I'd have to admit that, at least according to the Wikipedia definition of moral nihilism, this does describe my position on morality. However, just because I consider morality to be constructed does not mean I find it valueless. But I do understand you're trying to figure out what happens when I and others like me no longer see value in it.

So then, what alternative to moral nihilism do you offer us? Are you denying that the moralities most or all humans are following are constructed?

The suggestion of an absolute moral truth not constructed by us is a suggestion of something that would exist independently of humans. This would likely be something that existed before us. Perhaps something intrinsic to the universe itself?

The honest answer to whether such a thing exists is: we don't know.

So then, how do humans discover such a thing? Do you believe any humans already have?

We have discovered many properties of our habitat (the universe) that appear to be true. It has taken us millennia to discover some of these. It will likely take many more years to discover more of them. Are you willing to deal with the reality that we may never discover such a thing despite its possible existence? Or, that we may discover its existence, but completely misunderstand it? And yet...we may continue to exist, and get along with each other, just as we have been all along, despite all this.

I know humans are scary. Trust me. I can appreciate this. Sadly, no humans are in any position to offer you guarantees of your safety or even that of our entire species. The most I can see that we can do is to continue trying to be the best humans we can be. Most of us seem to be doing that now. I agree there are many who seem to be happy being complete assholes.

The best news I think I can give you is, there have always been assholes, even those in positions of real power. And we are still here. I even suspect there have always been moral nihilists through history, and we remain in spite of this. So, now what?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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26-07-2014, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 08:33 AM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
Ok True Scot, I'm sorry didn't address you before personally, but I don't realy have the time to point out all my objections with "objectivism"...
so I will just say; It's not empirically proven science, it's just her philosophy... so it's taken on faith, it's just another belief system... you can buy into it if you like


@ ClydeLee

"Because you're making leaps in logic without explaining your rationale... Which I've told you 3 times now."

- don't you call yourself a "moral nihilist"? is this not you logic to?? care to point out this leap for a 4th time?



"It doesn't change anything these days because long term benefits DO exist in altruism that do make it a "less suffering" choice to do "good""

- In some situations, Yes!
but, not it all!......
and you won't admit this, obvious fact of life.

you ignore it, and just keep repeating yourself, instead of engaging my question about a situation, where it is
- "more suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "good""...or
- "less suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "bad"
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26-07-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 07:57 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(21-07-2014 11:29 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  It appears to me, that atheism/naturalism can only lead us to nihilism, when taken all the way to it's logical conclusions... yet I see almost no one who will acknowledge/address this.

What grounds can we stand upon when we wish to call something "wrong"?

Are right/wrong merely subjective preferences?

Nietzsche,

You wrote: - why will no one address this point?

this is so frustrating, everyone just keeps saying "morality is arbitrary, but it's in your own self interest to follow it!"

I'll tell you what's frustrating. I have addressed it several times and you have had zero to say in response, either to agree or disagree. Apparently you find no fault with what I had to say on the subject. It is obvious to me that you don't really want to hear that there is a rational, objective basis for morality. You seem hell bent on divorcing morality from reason and self interest.

I don't understand your confusion. You have been told by some that morality is subjective and arbitrary. You reject that. You have been told by me that morality is objective and rational and you have neither objected or accepted it. The only other choice is a god given morality which is by definition subjective and arbitrary.

If you want help others no one will stop you.

Here is proof that morality is neither subjective nor god given. A god given morality is by definition subjective and arbitrary. Any argument that morality is subjective is instantly self refuting because it denies the all three of the basic axioms of philosophy. It commits the fallacy of the stolen concept.

To say that moral values are subjective is to say that man is exempt from the law of identity and causality. It denies the axiom of identity and since identity is existence it denies the axiom of existence. Without existence there can be no consciousness. But in the act of making any knowledge claim you are affirming that all three of the axioms are true. The axioms have to be true for you to disagree with them.

So a god given morality is out the window and so is any claim that moral values are subjective. The only other alternative is that moral values are objective.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@ smurf

"So then, what alternative to moral nihilism do you offer us? Are you denying that the moralities most or all humans are following are constructed?

The suggestion of an absolute moral truth not constructed by us is a suggestion of something that would exist independently of humans. This would likely be something that existed before us. Perhaps something intrinsic to the universe itself?"

- This is one possible suggestion, which would have to be taken on faith, This seems like it is the path I will take"

-The other is option, is to just admit our "moral nihilism" honestly.
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26-07-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 06:45 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @Bucky Ball
"There is no source for morality for humans, other than humans." - This is, what I'm refering to as "moral nihilism"!!!!!!!!!!!!!.... So yes! we do agree with the premise; naturalism=moral nihilism!!!!!!!!!!!!

you just want to play word games!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism
"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Moral nihilists consider morality to be constructed, a complex set of rules and recommendations that may give a psychological, social, or economical advantage to its adherents, but is otherwise without universal or even relative truth in any sense"

Repeating the same crap does not make it so, or support any argument for it.
Saying someone wants to "play word games" when you are totally unable to defend or even propose what your POINT is, or provide ANY support for it simply demonstrates your idiocy, and intellectual disabilities. We agree on NOTHING. What YOU call "moral nihilism" is not moral nihilism. You just NEED it to be, so you can tell yourself your point is true. It appears you would be better off debating on Face Book, where your level of idiots hang out.

"a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong."

NO ONE HERE SAYS THAT. No one here has EVER said that. Therefore, you are 100 % wrong.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@ true scotsman
That's not proof of anything! it's just Ayn Rands philosophy!
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26-07-2014, 08:46 AM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:41 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @ smurf

"So then, what alternative to moral nihilism do you offer us? Are you denying that the moralities most or all humans are following are constructed?

The suggestion of an absolute moral truth not constructed by us is a suggestion of something that would exist independently of humans. This would likely be something that existed before us. Perhaps something intrinsic to the universe itself?"

- This is one possible suggestion, which would have to be taken on faith, This seems like it is the path I will take"

-The other is option, is to just admit our "moral nihilism" honestly.

I'm confused. Are you claiming to have found an absolute moral truth intrinsic to the universe? How? When? Why didn't you tell us?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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26-07-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"NO ONE HERE SAYS THAT. No one here has EVER said that. Therefore, you are 100 % wrong."

- yes they would! because if they are saying something is inherently right/wrong... they are saying, that it is objective!
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26-07-2014, 09:10 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 09:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:47 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  "NO ONE HERE SAYS THAT. No one here has EVER said that. Therefore, you are 100 % wrong."

- yes they would! because if they are saying something is inherently right/wrong... they are saying, that it is objective!

Absolutely NOT. They do NOT say that. They have NEVER said that. YOU NEED to think they would, as you are an intellectual moron.

You do not get to tell people what they say or what they mean, or what they think.
How old are you ? Like 12 ?

When anyone says something is right or wrong. it means they *understand* it's right or wrong. (And DON'T even THINK of saying "you just want to play word games"). No one here INCLUDING YOU says something is "inherently" right or wrong. YOU would take a life to defend yourself. What that means to one person, (the perception of the level of the threat) can be VASTLY different than to another. YOU would take a life in a war, or if you were attacked. No one here is saying morals are "objective", including you

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN OUR MOUTHS.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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