Naturalism = Nihilism?
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26-07-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
^ could somebody else confirm to this guy he's wrong...?

saying something is inherently right/wrong, this is just another way of saying that it is objectively right/wrong.

so if anyone says that they think anything is inherently right/wrong, then it follows that they believe in objective morality.

A moral nihilist says "morality is not objective", so they would not think anything is inherently right/wrong.




@smurf, no I have no proof, and I'm not trying to argue for it either....
the topic for discussion is; does Naturalism = (moral)Nihilism?
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26-07-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 09:42 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  ^ could somebody else confirm to this guy he's wrong...?

saying something is inherently right/wrong, this is just another way of saying that it is objectively right/wrong.

so if anyone says that they think anything is inherently right/wrong, then it follows that they believe in objective morality.

A moral nihilist says "morality is not objective", so they would not think anything is inherently right/wrong.




@smurf, no I have no proof, and I'm not trying to argue for it either....
the topic for discussion is; does Naturalism = (moral)Nihilism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Nope.
Not at all.
Reductio ad absurdam (fallcy) argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
Affirming the consequent fallacy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
you can't both believe "morality is not objective" and "morality is objective" at the same time though?
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26-07-2014, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 10:00 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 09:49 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  you can't both believe "morality is not objective" and "morality is objective" at the same time though?

So what ? You haven't even defined any of your terms. What is "objective" ? What is "morality" ?
And you CAN dismiss the entire argument as meaningless, idiotic, useless, and get on with (a very non-"Nihilist") life.

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26-07-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
go ahead mate, I'm certainly not stopping you! why have you stayed here this long?
I am starting to question if I am just wasting my time here on this forum also...
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26-07-2014, 11:43 AM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 10:01 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  go ahead mate, I'm certainly not stopping you! why have you stayed here this long?
I am starting to question if I am just wasting my time here on this forum also...

Wasting your time? What are you trying to accomplish exactly?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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26-07-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:29 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  Ok True Scot, I'm sorry didn't address you before personally, but I don't realy have the time to point out all my objections with "objectivism"...
so I will just say; It's not empirically proven science, it's just her philosophy... so it's taken on faith, it's just another belief system... you can buy into it if you like


@ ClydeLee

"Because you're making leaps in logic without explaining your rationale... Which I've told you 3 times now."

- don't you call yourself a "moral nihilist"? is this not you logic to?? care to point out this leap for a 4th time?

Nietzsche,

"It doesn't change anything these days because long term benefits DO exist in altruism that do make it a "less suffering" choice to do "good""

- In some situations, Yes!
but, not it all!......
and you won't admit this, obvious fact of life.

you ignore it, and just keep repeating yourself, instead of engaging my question about a situation, where it is
- "more suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "good""...or
- "less suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "bad"
Nietzsche,

I understand. My posting time is extremely limited as well.

You do not have to point out all of your objections to Objectivism. Forget about the name and just focus on the actual argument that I am presenting. There are only 4 basic principles involved here and they are not only easily understood but perceptually self evident. It is the answer you are looking for and and the best part is that it is objectively true. But don't take my word for it, check its premises yourself. It is worth your time and effort to examine and either refute or validate. I'll present it again in summary form to make it easier.

1. If man is not exempt from the law of identity, if he possesses a specific nature, then there are objective moral principles or values that his life requires.

2. Man is not exempt from the law of identity.

3. Therefore there are objective moral principles or values that his life requires.

Premise one is self explanatory and I think unassailable true. Man's nature as man means that his life requires a specific course of action. Any other course is harmful to his life. Certain actions are objectively good for him and others are objectively bad.

Premise two is self evidently true. The fact that man possesses a specific nature is perceptually self evident.

Man has a volitional consciousness and he is free to take any action he wants but he is not free to avoid the consequences. He is not exempt from the law of causality either, which is the law of identity applied to action. If man wants to live then he is not free to live in any old way he wants.

Since men must live together then it is always in their self interest to respect each others rights and property. To do otherwise would lead to chaos and destruction which you see happening all over the world where rights are not respected.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 01:40 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:45 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @ true scotsman
That's not proof of anything! it's just Ayn Rands philosophy!

Yes it is Ayn Rand's philosophy or at least a small part of it and philosophic principles are either true or they are not. Saying it is just somebody's philosophy is actually not a refutation. Deal with the premises. Do you find an error in the logic or some fact that I have overlooked?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 01:00 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  How exactly, does you "reasoning" hold, when it is no longer in ones best interest to do the socially constructed "right thing"?
I am quite happy to do things that are not seen as the socially constructed "right thing". It really depends on the consequences.

(26-07-2014 01:04 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  You want to hold onto some notion of morality, but when asked what is meant by it, you basically just say "be nice to others, because its in your best interest to"............ yeah, sometimes it is! but, sometimes it is not(can you acknowledge this point please?) so what about these situations?
Is this a question for me?
I don't hold onto a notion of morality. I am an amoralist, a moral nihilist.
I think morality boils down to peoples own opinions, own personal beliefs.
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26-07-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:35 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  So a god given morality is out the window and so is any claim that moral values are subjective. The only other alternative is that moral values are objective.
Have you considered the other alternative?
That morality doesn't exist.
That there are no moral truths, no moral obligations, no moral consequences.

That morality is non other than an unfounded belief system.
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