Naturalism = Nihilism?
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26-07-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Bucky

The topic is does (moral)Nihilism naturally follow from the conclusions of naturalism?


YOU SAID - "There is no source for morality for humans, other than humans."

- This is what moral nihilism means!!!!!!!!!!!

- so you agree that (moral)Nihilism follows from naturalism....and I agree!

so we agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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26-07-2014, 07:51 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 07:55 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 06:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 05:28 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Metaphysical pertains to the fundamental nature of existence. by metaphysically given I mean all of existence excluding the man made. The man made still exists but it did not have to be. For example stars, matter, energy, trees, glaciers, Hydrogen, neutrinos, Giraffes, DNA, lightning, gravity, and black holes are the metaphysically given. The man made refers to houses, watches, ice cream cones, hot air balloons and toothpaste.

And just how, exactly, is the metaphysical different from the physical ?

It isn't. All of those examples I gave you are physical. The fact is that matter exists and so does consciousness. They are both a part of existence as are immaterial things like concepts. Concepts however are not metaphysically given. They are the product the conceptual faculty. The conceptual faculty is metaphysically given.

Objectivism does not recognize dualism but neither is it monism. It is not positivism, or materialism or idealism. Remember that Objectivism recognizes both "existence" and "consciousness" as its two founding principles.

I use the term metaphysical in the philosophical sense not the woo sense.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 09:16 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2014 09:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 07:51 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 06:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And just how, exactly, is the metaphysical different from the physical ?

It isn't. All of those examples I gave you are physical. The fact is that matter exists and so does consciousness. They are both a part of existence as are immaterial things like concepts. Concepts however are not metaphysically given. They are the product the conceptual faculty. The conceptual faculty is metaphysically given.

Objectivism does not recognize dualism but neither is it monism. It is not positivism, or materialism or idealism. Remember that Objectivism recognizes both "existence" and "consciousness" as its two founding principles.

I use the term metaphysical in the philosophical sense not the woo sense.

What exactly does "metaphysically given" mean ?
If "it isn't" different from the physical, then why employ a word that implies a dualism. Why not just say "emergent from" (apart from the Philosobabble value) ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 06:57 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  it falls apart as soon as it is no longer in ones self interest to be nice to others!



- why will no one address this point?

I fucking have. Society has all in all worked for thousands of years.

Why, exactly, do you expect it to just fucking... stop... out of no where?

Why?


(26-07-2014 06:57 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  this is so frustrating, everyone just keeps saying "morality is arbitrary, but it's in your own self interest to follow it!"


BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN IT IS NOT!?

Jesus tapdancing Christ. What's annoying is you insisting on some justification which doesn't exist, then you want to know why it works... when it demonstrably does.

You remind me of people who say that bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly according to aerodynamics. Of course, they do fly, so those people probably don't know as much about aerodynamics as they think.

You keep asking why we should do what's been working for thousands of years, and then want to know why it might stop working out of no where. Your approach is completely backward.
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26-07-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2014, 09:27 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(21-07-2014 11:29 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  It appears to me, that atheism/naturalism can only lead us to nihilism, when taken all the way to its logical conclusions... yet I see almost no one who will acknowledge/address this.

What grounds can we stand upon when we wish to call something "wrong"?

Are right/wrong merely subjective preferences?

I accept it and acknowledge it.

"Wrong" is relative to "not wrong" and is mapped onto an objective scale / framework / axiology of wrongness that we have evolved (and are evolving) subjectively.

Does my agreement with you make me an "almost no one"?

Wink

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26-07-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 07:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  And we can also learn what actions are good for us and which are bad by a process of reason.
Define good, define bad.

(26-07-2014 07:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  If we can learn the right way to grow a crop or build a rocket to Mars we can learn about morality.
This is a non sequitur.

(26-07-2014 07:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes it is true that in my example both men could be wrong but if they are committed to reason as their only means of knowledge and guide to action they will at least have the means to discover their mistake or persuaded by logic that they are wrong.
Sorry, this is not true.
If you are to insist that this is true then please show me how "morally good" can be objectively discovered and distinguished from "morally bad".

(26-07-2014 07:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Murder is objectively wrong.
Murder is not objectively wrong. Please define wrong and show how something can be objectively discovered to be wrong.
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26-07-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 07:51 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  The fact is that matter exists and so does consciousness.
Consciousness isn't a physical object, nor is it a special type of energy. Consciousness is a concept. It is a way of describing certain characteristics of certain systems. But it is not something that exists. A concept is a way to simplify complex things or ideas. Concepts aren't physical.
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26-07-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 09:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 07:51 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  The fact is that matter exists and so does consciousness.
Consciousness isn't a physical object, nor is it a special type of energy. Consciousness is a concept. It is a way of describing certain characteristics of certain systems. But it is not something that exists. A concept is a way to simplify complex things or ideas. Concepts aren't physical.

I'm really at a loss for words.

Consciousness doesn't exist.....and you know this by means of your.....blank out.

Thanks for the discussion.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-07-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 11:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(26-07-2014 09:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Consciousness isn't a physical object, nor is it a special type of energy. Consciousness is a concept. It is a way of describing certain characteristics of certain systems. But it is not something that exists. A concept is a way to simplify complex things or ideas. Concepts aren't physical.

I'm really at a loss for words.

Consciousness doesn't exist.....and you know this by means of your.....blank out.

Thanks for the discussion.

Except he didn't say that consciousness doesn't exist.

So there's that.

... this is my signature!
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