Naturalism = Nihilism?
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27-07-2014, 04:41 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 04:52 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"One could easily discard moral belief and describe each of these behaviours in a non moral way." - THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY

.............

"Not harming others - I don't harm others because they might harm me in retaliation. I don't harm others because I don't want others harming me and hence I don't want to promote that behaviour in society. I don't harm others because I want to be safe in society hence I agree with a law protecting each other from harm.

Being fair - I don't cheat and con others because they might retaliate. I don't cheat and con because I don't want others cheating or conning me hence I don't want to promote...

Being loyal to a group - I am loyal to a group because I want them to be loyal to me. If we stick together as a group then we are stronger than any individual, this benefits me, it protects me.

Respect for legitimate authority - If we are to form a society with rules, we need a authority to help set the rules and to enforce them. Without enforced rules society is likely to be dangerous. It is in my best interest to have enforced rules.

Exalting what's pure, clean, and holy - Meh!"



I agree with this reasoning(to a certain extent.).. And I think most moral nihilists would probably say the same sorta thing...

but, your reasoning only works some of the time.. it falls flat as soon as it is no longer reasonable!(obviously)

you have no reason to "be fair", unless it suits you.... which is not always the case! everyone walks around this point
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27-07-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 04:41 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  but, your reasoning only works some of the time.. it falls flat as soon as it is no longer reasonable!(obviously)

you have no reason to "be fair", unless it suits you.... which is not always the case! everyone walks around this point
Provide an example where my reasoning falls flat.
But bear in mind, fairness in not my goal, I don't think the world is fair, and I don't think it ought to be. It is what it is.
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27-07-2014, 06:21 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 06:37 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"Provide an example where my reasoning falls flat (in regards to always acting "fairly")"... well you kinda do that yourself when you say "I don't think the world is fair, and I don't think it ought to be. It is what it is."

but eg. anyway
If I decided not to give the man back his wallet and the $100... because I would much prefer the hard cash, over the other possible rewards... then your reasoning("I don't cheat and con others because they might retaliate. I don't cheat and con because I don't want others cheating or conning me hence I don't want to promote...") falls flat!

all your arbitrary rules(whether they come from, utilitarianism, social standards ect.) realy just come back to....
what is Right, is what's right for you, and nothing eles.

If moral nihilism is true, there's no way I'm letting anyone eles arbitrary rules, get in the way of my own self interest!
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27-07-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
You want fries with that?

#sigh
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27-07-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
If you don't want to participate in the discussion grilyman, then that's fine... but some do.
So why just keep popping back in with these remarks..?

Are you supposes to be witty? what are you a riddler?or are you just mad?... you seem to have nothing at all to say?
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27-07-2014, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2014 07:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 06:54 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  If you don't want to participate in the discussion grilyman, then that's fine... but some do.
So why just keep popping back in with these remarks..?

Just to dick with your witless naivete.
...
Oh. And you want fries with that?

#sigh
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27-07-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 06:21 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  If I decided not to give the man back his wallet and the $100... because I would much prefer the hard cash, over the other possible rewards... then your reasoning("I don't cheat and con others because they might retaliate. I don't cheat and con because I don't want others cheating or conning me hence I don't want to promote...") falls flat!
Huh, I'm not following you here.
You have decided not to give the guy's money back. That was your decision to make. I have never stated what you should or shouldn't do.
Now you may or may not incur consequences.
Maybe the guy beats you up and takes his wallet back, maybe you overpower him and get to keep the wallet and money, maybe he calls the police and you go to jail.
But so what.
My statement still stands. There is the threat of retaliation, there is the threat of violence, there is the threat of jail, there is the threat that society devolves into a dog eat dog world.
You taking the wallet is neither right nor wrong. You make your own decisions and real consequences may or may not be incurred.
(27-07-2014 06:21 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  all your arbitrary rules(whether they come from, utilitarianism, social standards ect.) realy just come back to....
what is Right, is what's right for you, and nothing eles.
I have not stated what is right nor what is wrong.
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27-07-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 07:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 06:21 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  If I decided not to give the man back his wallet and the $100... because I would much prefer the hard cash, over the other possible rewards... then your reasoning("I don't cheat and con others because they might retaliate. I don't cheat and con because I don't want others cheating or conning me hence I don't want to promote...") falls flat!
Huh, I'm not following you here.
You have decided not to give the guy's money back. That was your decision to make. I have never stated what you should or shouldn't do.
Now you may or may not incur consequences.
Maybe the guy beats you up and takes his wallet back, maybe you overpower him and get to keep the wallet and money, maybe he calls the police and you go to jail.
But so what.
My statement still stands. There is the threat of retaliation, there is the threat of violence, there is the threat of jail, there is the threat that society devolves into a dog eat dog world.
You taking the wallet is neither right nor wrong. You make your own decisions and real consequences may or may not be incurred.
(27-07-2014 06:21 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  all your arbitrary rules(whether they come from, utilitarianism, social standards ect.) realy just come back to....
what is Right, is what's right for you, and nothing eles.
I have not stated what is right nor what is wrong.

Does anybody want these fries or fuck? ... I'd've thrown them away long ago.

#sigh
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27-07-2014, 08:36 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@ Stevil
Sorry, what you are saying is honest moral nihilism, and I respect you for that!(not that that should really mean anything to you)

I must of got you mixed up with one of the other posters, because I thought you were trying to argue that "utilitarianism" or "humanism" was the objective code that we should follow
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27-07-2014, 11:20 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 08:36 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @ Stevil
Sorry, what you are saying is honest moral nihilism, and I respect you for that!(not that that should really mean anything to you)

I must of got you mixed up with one of the other posters, because I thought you were trying to argue that "utilitarianism" or "humanism" was the objective code that we should follow
Yeah, I think maybe you are taking an overly aggressive approach here, you have a point to make and it does take a bit of a shakeup to get people to come out of the "morality bubble" and to consider an amoral approach as an alternative way of thinking.
But it is difficult to do. Beliefs are hard to shake off. Moral beliefs, religious beliefs, whatever it is.
I don't think being aggressive and alienating people helps matters though. It may be beneficial to take a moment to read what people are saying, to try and understand their point of view and address those rather than making the volleys you are throwing.

You have made assumptions about many people here, claiming they are naturalists, and humanists etc. At least you understand my position now. I came to the realisation on my own that morals are beliefs and are unfounded and unnecessary to explain human behaviour. It took quite a bit of thinking, applying it to my past experiences, applying it human nature and behaviours and finding plausible explanations that don't rely on a moral compass.
But certainly the concept on its own alienates people. People are taught/conditioned to think that being selfish is bad, that they are good people and that they would never consider hurting others, that it isn't the threat of retaliation that stops them from hurting people.
Due to all the conditioning people have with regards to morality, it is an unintuitive mind fuck for them to consider moral nihilism. In my experience people often jump to the conclusion that moral nihilism equates to being psychopathic anarchy.

But I do say, well done for you trying to get people to think on this difficult topic.
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