Naturalism = Nihilism?
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28-07-2014, 01:22 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Stevil - again sorry for the misunderstanding.


@everyone eles...
surely their are some secular humanists out their who would disagree with the notion that "(moral)nihilism logically follows from naturalism"..
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28-07-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(28-07-2014 01:22 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @everyone eles...
surely their are some secular humanists out their who would disagree with the notion that "(moral)nihilism logically follows from naturalism"..

Perhaps. Why are you so worried about it? It seems most of what you can accomplish is to get people to realize that the labels and descriptions they use regarding morality are misleading.
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28-07-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"It seems most of what you can accomplish is to get people to realize that the labels and descriptions they use regarding morality are misleading"
- is this not enough of a reason?
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28-07-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(28-07-2014 01:22 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @everyone else...
surely their are some secular humanists out their who would disagree with the notion that "(moral)nihilism logically follows from naturalism"..

At work.

*Raises hand*

I'm quite happy to disagree that 'The notion of "(moral)nihilism logically follows from naturalism."

Much cheers to all.
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28-07-2014, 02:14 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
Did I miss something? It seems the OP is just an exercise in policing the way (some theoretical) people use a particular word?

How did I get trapped into this? Again!?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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28-07-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Peebothuhul
care to explain?
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28-07-2014, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 04:05 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(27-07-2014 01:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-07-2014 08:34 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  So back to the argument I gave for objective morality. Do you still have objections to the first premise now that I have defined all of my terms and explained the concepts?
"If man is not exempt from the law of identity, if he possesses a specific nature, then there are objective moral principles or values that his life requires."

I disagree with this premise.

Natural law does not lead to objective moral principles or values, this is a non sequitur.

Your definition of values is too broad. You say humans need to breath air, that air is a value. But how do you go from that to "it is objectively immoral to commit murder, because of the nature of humans"?

I can see that murder is in the nature of humans, so is rape. Given a large group of humans and some time, these things will happen as it is in our nature.

Do you not see the internal incoherence in what you are saying? If the premise is a non sequitur you're are saying that man is free to to live any way he wants, the laws of nature be damned. That is the primacy of consciousness writ large.

Just because a man can choose to take some action like rape or murder does not make it right. If what is right and wrong is determined by man's likes, desires, whims, feelings, faith or wants then right and wrong are subjective. If right and wrong are subjective so are what is true and what is false. You are using logic to prove the the primacy of consciousness. You are using logic to undercut logic. You are committing the fallacy of the stolen concept.

My argument stands.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-07-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(28-07-2014 03:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Just because a man can choose to take some action like rape or murder does not make it right.
OK, please demonstrate how we can objectively distinguish whether rape or murder are right or wrong?
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28-07-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(28-07-2014 02:14 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Did I miss something? It seems the OP is just an exercise in policing the way (some theoretical) people use a particular word?

How did I get trapped into this? Again!?

Which word ?

Having ? Your ? Cake ? Eating ? It ? Too ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-07-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(28-07-2014 07:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 03:59 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Just because a man can choose to take some action like rape or murder does not make it right.
OK, please demonstrate how we can objectively distinguish whether rape or murder are right or wrong?

Sure. First we need an objective measuring stick or standard of value, man's life and the requirements or rights that his nature requires for his survival. Once we have that we use it to evaluate our choices and actions. If man is to live together in society he must hold the rights of his fellow men as absolutes. If we violate the rights of one man we have abandoned the concept of rights and forfeited our own.

Basically morality boils down to individual rights. These rights are not given, held or received by anyone's permission. They are metaphysically given which means unalienable. They can't be violated except by force.

I've already told you why rape and murder are wrong, they are harmful to man's life. They are a violation of individual rights.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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