Naturalism = Nihilism?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-07-2014, 01:49 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
Anyone interested in a rigorous case for morality grounded in sentient well-being would do well to read Sam Harris' "The Moral Landscape".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(21-07-2014 11:29 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  It appears to me, that atheism/naturalism can only lead us to nihilism, when taken all the way to it's logical conclusions... yet I see almost no one who will acknowledge/address this.

What grounds can we stand upon when we wish to call something "wrong"?

Are right/wrong merely subjective preferences?

Morality does not come from the gods.
Your unexamined assumptions and premises are false.
What god are you even presuming establishes a moral order, and where does it get that from ?

It's very easy to demonstrate how meaningless your assertion is.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
I have read Sam Harris' book - It's a good book, along the same lines as the youtube video posted on the previous page..that which causes harm="wrong", that which helps us to flourish="right"

But Sam Harris still gives no reason as to why I do/should actually care about people, and not just myself
The theist does offer and explanation (= because we have a conscince, we should do the right thing because it's part of who we are)
The only reasoning I'm hearing from the atheists is "There are self-serving reasons to not be a jerk"....... yeah that's true, but there are also many self-serving reasons to be a jerk.... what about these???



I'm not arguing for any particular god/religion, I'm simply trying to discuss if this word "morality" can have any sort of valid meaning without a transcendent source... it appears it can not
"You should not act selfishly, because it is(sometimes) in your best interest not to" is not gonna cut it in my book...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 05:05 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I have read Sam Harris' book - It's a good book, along the same lines as the youtube video posted on the previous page..that which causes harm="wrong", that which helps us to flourish="right"

But Sam Harris still gives no reason as to why I do/should actually care about people, and not just myself
The theist does offer and explanation (= because we have a conscince, we should do the right thing because it's part of who we are)
The only reasoning I'm hearing from the atheists is "There are self-serving reasons to not be a jerk"....... yeah that's true, but there are also many self-serving reasons to be a jerk.... what about these???

You weigh them and act accordingly. As does literally everyone else. All the time. What's not to get?

(23-07-2014 05:05 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I'm not arguing for any particular god/religion, I'm simply trying to discuss if this word "morality" can have any sort of valid meaning without a transcendent source... it appears it can not
"You should not act selfishly, because it is(sometimes) in your best interest not to" is not gonna cut it in my book...

That's not coherent.

Morality is considering what one should do. In any given situation, are there better or worse actions? Yes? Congratulations. A morality exists.

What you think is good enough has no bearing on what actually is. Social animals (protip: that includes humans) require an element of cooperation to survive.

It sounds like you're looking at this from a very apologist point of view. "But I want there to be objective morality, therefore there is..."
(and note that it is always the highly specific morality of the individual that is presupposed to be "objective" and "universal"...)

However, even an objective morality - something which does not exist - does not require a transcendent source.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
23-07-2014, 05:19 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 05:05 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I have read Sam Harris' book - It's a good book, along the same lines as the youtube video posted on the previous page..that which causes harm="wrong", that which helps us to flourish="right"

But Sam Harris still gives no reason as to why I do/should actually care about people, and not just myself
The theist does offer and explanation (= because we have a conscince, we should do the right thing because it's part of who we are)
The only reasoning I'm hearing from the atheists is "There are self-serving reasons to not be a jerk"....... yeah that's true, but there are also many self-serving reasons to be a jerk.... what about these???



I'm not arguing for any particular god/religion, I'm simply trying to discuss if this word "morality" can have any sort of valid meaning without a transcendent source... it appears it can not
"You should not act selfishly, because it is(sometimes) in your best interest not to" is not gonna cut it in my book...

Are you saying you are inclined to act selfishly or that you see no reason not to despite not feeling inclined to? Just looking for clarification.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cardinal Smurf's post
23-07-2014, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2014 05:38 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
I am saying that I am strongly inclined to do what is "right" in a universal sense(as defined by Sam = the well being of all conscious life) even when doing what is "right" works directly against me.

When asked to decided between what is right for me, or what is right for everyone.
Why do/should I choose the latter?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 05:36 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 05:05 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I'm not arguing for any particular god/religion, I'm simply trying to discuss if this word "morality" can have any sort of valid meaning without a transcendent source... it appears it can not
"You should not act selfishly, because it is(sometimes) in your best interest not to" is not gonna cut it in my book...

Then you have not fully understood that statement and its implications. You don't seem to be able to put yourself in another's shoes.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
23-07-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 05:35 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I am saying that I am strongly inclined to do what is "right" in a universal sense(as defined by Sam = the well being of all conscious life) even when doing what is "right" works directly against me.

When asked to decided between what is right for me, or what is right for everyone.
Why do/should I choose the latter?

The two are not always mutually exclusive.

Also the problem seems to be postulated in a vacuum which makes it something of a meaningless question in this case.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 05:44 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(23-07-2014 05:35 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I am saying that I am strongly inclined to do what is "right" in a universal sense(as defined by Sam = the well being of all conscious life) even when doing what is "right" works directly against me.

When asked to decided between what is right for me, or what is right for everyone.
Why do/should I choose the latter?

Have you fully considered the implications of what happens to you if you choose to be selfish? Haven't you ever chosen to be selfish before? Do you recall the result?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2014, 05:58 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"The two are not always mutually exclusive."
No not always, I acknowledged this!... but sometimes they are, so can we acknowledged that fact??

when people use the word Morality, they are normally talking about a choice between doing what is right for everyone(good) or to do what is good for only ourself(bad).... they are not just talking about "I ought to be unselfish so that I can be more thoroughly selfish"



"Haven't you ever chosen to be selfish before? Do you recall the result?"
Yes I have chose to be selfish before, in this capitalist society it often seems to work in my favour, although it hurts my "conscience"...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: