Naturalism = Nihilism?
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29-07-2014, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2014 01:46 AM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
**I'm not sure if your aware - I pointed it out previously in the thread - I'm not a moral nihilist - I'm simply taking the position of one for the sake of argument**


you and me both BELIEVE in objective morality!

I do value honesty... not because a bible says I should, not because society says, not because utilitarianism says, not because Rand says, and not because "it is always in my best interest" to do so......

I chose to do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing!

Just for the sake of my conscience!
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29-07-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 01:13 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  **I'm not sure if your aware - I pointed it out previously in the thread - I'm not a moral nihilist - I'm simply taking the position of one for the sake of argument**


you and me both BELIEVE in objective morality!

I do value honesty... not because a bible says I should, not because society says, not because utilitarianism says, not because Rand says, and not because "it is always in my best interest" to do so......

I chose to do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing!

Just for the sake of my conscience!

I didn't see that. That's great, then we are in agreement. I should add that I don't do anything because Rand says to. She would roll over in her grave if she heard that. She always said that you should never take anything on faith. she always said that a philosophy must be integrated and validated at each level by the individual and not taken on anyone's word. She advocated the fullest, most scrupulous use of logic and her famous line was "check your premises". I'm glad that you aren't a nihilist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-07-2014, 01:27 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 12:54 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 10:19 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Put it this way. Who would you rather live with? People who hold your rights as sacrosanct as their own or people who have no objective standard of right and wrong. Would you rather live next to John Locke or Attila the Hun.
I would rather live with a person that values tolerance and diversity rather than having a desire to force others to their own moral standard.

I'd pick a moral nihilist over that any day.

Well then you and I would get along just fine. I take the attitude of a Porcupine. A Porcupine goes about it's business harming no one. But, should anything seek to offer violence it will be in a world of hurt and no mistake.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-07-2014, 01:32 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
On a practical level, I don't think anyone is a nihilist!....

What I was trying to make clear to you; is that these objective values(if real) must have their foundation in something beyond this natural world!

and that believing in them, takes a leap of faith..... and that we should be honest, and acknowledge that we both have a certain kind of faith
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29-07-2014, 03:08 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 12:59 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @stevil

moral nihilist = a person that values tolerance and diversity??....


this just sounds like another set of objective values....
I'm not saying that it is right to be tolerant and wrong to be intolerant.
I do have a personal opinion. It is my opinion and I don't have the expectation that other people should have the same opinion as me.

I do like and value tolerance.
I do dislike intolerance.
My reasoning is that I don't want to be oppressed. If someone deems it immoral to not believe in a particular god, I don't want them putting me in prison for the "crime" of not believing in their god.
Instead I want them to be tolerant of me and my unbelief. So I value this trait in people. But this is not to say that I think people should have this trait and should be punished if they are intolerant.
People are what they are. I just have to deal with the cards in front of me.

But I don't support government imposing moral beliefs onto others. Because
1. I don't share their moral beliefs,
2. I don't want government imposing on me on matters that don't impact the safety of society.

My values aren't objective, they are my opinions, they are rooted in my self interest. Not in what I believe others should do. Not in what I believe is right or wrong. I don't have such beliefs.
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29-07-2014, 03:53 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
Point of order @ nietzsche101,

Please could you use the 'reply' button under the post to which you want to reply. Then we can better follow to whom you are replying.

To quote more than one post in your reply, you can use the small 'quote this post' button next to the reply button.

Cheers

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29-07-2014, 04:46 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 01:32 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  What I was trying to make clear to you; is that these objective values(if real) must have their foundation in something beyond this natural world!

and that believing in them, takes a leap of faith..... and that we should be honest, and acknowledge that we both have a certain kind of faith

"Something beyond this natural world"? You just said:
Quote:I chose to do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing!
Just for the sake of my conscience!

Do you think your conscience is "beyond the natural world"?
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29-07-2014, 07:21 AM
Re: RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(26-07-2014 08:29 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  Ok True Scot, I'm sorry didn't address you before personally, but I don't realy have the time to point out all my objections with "objectivism"...
so I will just say; It's not empirically proven science, it's just her philosophy... so it's taken on faith, it's just another belief system... you can buy into it if you like


@ ClydeLee

"Because you're making leaps in logic without explaining your rationale... Which I've told you 3 times now."

- don't you call yourself a "moral nihilist"? is this not you logic to?? care to point out this leap for a 4th time?



"It doesn't change anything these days because long term benefits DO exist in altruism that do make it a "less suffering" choice to do "good""

- In some situations, Yes!
but, not it all!......
and you won't admit this, obvious fact of life.

you ignore it, and just keep repeating yourself, instead of engaging my question about a situation, where it is
- "more suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "good""...or
- "less suffering"(both short/long) choice to do "bad"

You've yet, even in the concluding pages since this post, explain your logical progression to how "things fall apart" as you've put it.

I've seen you repeatedly state to me or others, we agree! Yes some of us agree upon your moral nihilism from naturalism claim...but you seem to overlook we aren't agreeing to the premises you conclude from that.. You say your question is ignored but it's not being ignored... the answer is so what?


Maybe There isn't a perfect answer for all situations... So what? You judge to act that it's a bad thing without explanation. Until you give a logical progression of how things hall apart from moral nihilism, you're just asserting an ending point without examining reality rationally.

I don't get why you fail to define how you judge a rational choice. It's key to how you find the conclusion you want to presume.

To your $100 scenario. You could potentially benefit more from giving the money back. You could get lucky and get a job from the person who dropped the wallet. We can't see into the future, so we don't actually know which choice will benefit us more.

We are condemned to choose and deal with our choice. By using our rational minds, we know we don't know the outcomes. We know we won't always make the rational choice even if we make what appears as the rational choice in a moment.

My question back at you has frequently been, how do you judge what the rational choice is. My view is that there isn't a perfect answer for all situations, and that's not a bad thing. That's part of the anguish in our conscious life that we must deal with

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 01:32 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  On a practical level, I don't think anyone is a nihilist!....

What I was trying to make clear to you; is that these objective values(if real) must have their foundation in something beyond this natural world!

and that believing in them, takes a leap of faith..... and that we should be honest, and acknowledge that we both have a certain kind of faith

I don't agree with that because there isn't anything beyond this natural world.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-07-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 01:32 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  On a practical level, I don't think anyone is a nihilist!....

What I was trying to make clear to you; is that these objective values(if real) must have their foundation in something beyond this natural world!

and that believing in them, takes a leap of faith..... and that we should be honest, and acknowledge that we both have a certain kind of faith

I'm going to let the "objective values" part slide, just for the sake of argument, and focus on the word "must".

"must have a foundation in something beyond this natural world"

Just because one doesn't know something, it doesn't mean "must be supernatural".

Is that the only possible answer? Really? You are just taking the long way around to "God did it".
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