Naturalism = Nihilism?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-07-2014, 05:15 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 05:49 AM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Stevil
I'm really not even sure what you're trying to say anymore...............but,


QUOTE - "there is no reason to believe that we can't be law abiding without "good"."

- For someone to state that there are no objective values, but that we should still abide the law(apart from arbitrary reasons), is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard!
If there is no real right/wrong, why would anyone in their right mind would become a slave to someone else standard of right/wrong!?







Then you create a dichotomy..... stating "Tolerance and diversity are the polar opposite of morality" (what!?!!! Tolerance is included in almost any moral code... unless by tolerance you mean = "the paedophile can do as he likes, you bigots should leave him alone")

the rest of your post then seems to be presenting a case claiming that nihilism has the MORAL high-grounds with it's "Tolerance and diversity".....
and that moralists are actually immoral with their "desire to interfere, to oppress, to manipulate people into behaving according to your own moral standard".

well, even though you've turned morality on it's head........ *morality is immoral*
you seem to be appealing to some sort of objective standard!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 05:36 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(30-07-2014 05:15 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  QUOTE - "there is no reason to believe that we can't be law abiding without "good"."

- For someone to state that their are no objective values, but that we should still abide the law(apart from arbitrary reasons), is one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard!
The problem is that you don't listen. Time and time again in this thread you don't listen.
I never said people should abide the law. People can do what they want. They make their own decisions and they face the consequences, whatever those might be.

The consequences of breaking the law, might be a fine, might be imprisonment, might be a criminal record. For people who want to work or want to do international travel a criminal record can be very limiting.
Really, for me its about assessing the consequences, the outcomes, taking risk if I deem it appropriate. For me its about living life with my eyes open rather than blindly following a moral belief which has no supporting evidence and no consequences.

(30-07-2014 05:15 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  If there is no right/wrong, why would anyone in their right mind would become a slave to someone else arbitrary right/wrong!?
Can you think of real consequences to your actions?
Try to think about it.
It's not hard if you try.
Forget about stupid moral beliefs, forget about wanting to be a good person.

Let's say someone has something that you want.
What is stopping you from taking it?
1. They might fight you
2. You might go to prison
3. You might get a reputation as a theif and then people might not trust you or want you in their group.
4. You have an influence on society, you steal, they steal, next minute you spend all your time at home guarding your stuff.

Real consequences have nothing to do with some magical concept of morality. I don't get bonus points when I die if I lived a "good" life.
Keep it real buddy. Focus on real consequences, focus on the real choices people are faced with.


(30-07-2014 05:15 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  Then you create a dichotomy..... stating "Tolerance and diversity are the polar opposite of morality" (what!?!!! Tolerance is included in almost any moral code...
Morality is about conformity. It is about intolerance of immorality. Some people deem abortion to be immoral so they interfere in other people's lives by making it illegal to have abortions. Some people deem prostitution immoral so they interfere and make it illegal.
These things that don't impact your own life. They are easily avoided if you are not interested in them, why not just avoid them rather than going out of your way to interfere in other people's lives?

(30-07-2014 05:15 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  unless by tolerance you mean "the paedophile can do as he likes, you bigots should leave him alone")
I think you are losing your own ability for rational thought here.
Let's try and keep it real rather than being stupid.

(30-07-2014 05:15 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  the rest of your post then seems to be presenting a case claiming that nihilism has the MORAL high-grounds with it's "Tolerance and diversity".....
and that moralists are actually immoral with their "desire to interfere, to oppress, to manipulate people into behaving according to your own moral standard".
It's not a moral high ground. I don't have any moral beliefs. I feel like I'm talking to a fucking idiot here!
If you try to impose your moral beliefs on me, then you are a threat to me. A real threat. Then I may need to focus on stopping you being a threat. That paints a target on you.
I don't paint a target on myself. I have no interest in imposing my beliefs onto other people.
You can imagine that this stance puts me in the moral high ground. But I have no morals. I just see yours as a potential threat to me.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Stevil's post
30-07-2014, 05:59 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 06:19 AM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
"These things that don't impact your own life. They are easily avoided if you are not interested in them, why not just avoid them rather than going out of your way to interfere in other people's lives?"

- I'm not being stupid, this is very real.... what about the actions of the paedophile, do you suppose we just tolerate this also?





" I have no interest in imposing my beliefs onto other people."

- If this world is ultimately valueless, how is there any other way to go about living your life without imposing your own "beliefs"(strange choice of a word to use) onto everyone you meet!?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(30-07-2014 05:59 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  "These things that don't impact your own life. They are easily avoided if you are not interested in them, why not just avoid them rather than going out of your way to interfere in other people's lives?"

- I'm not being stupid, this is very real.... what about the actions of the paedophile, do you suppose we just tolerate this also?
I can't speak for you.
I have two young girls. I want them to be safe. This impacts my life greatly. I strongly support laws against rape because I don't want my girls, my wife, my mother to be raped.
This has nothing to do with rape being right or wrong. It has to do with the safety of my loved ones.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 08:50 AM by ClydeLee.)
Re: RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(29-07-2014 10:23 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @Clydelee
Quote - " Until you give a logical progression of how things hall apart from moral nihilism, you're just asserting an ending point without examining reality rationally."

well you see even concepts like; rationality, truth, empirical evidence, the desire to live, empathy, tolerance (ect) are all worthless unless they are VALUED.



Quote - "To your $100 scenario. You could potentially benefit more from giving the money back. You could get lucky and get a job from the person who dropped the wallet. "

You seem to want to say that doing the right thing (in the utilitarian sense) is always the most rational thing to do for our own self interest... this notion is laughable!
- let's say the wallet contained $1,000,000, and no one else was around to see me pick it up..... is it still rational to give the man back his wallet, because "he might give me a job, or something"?







@Truescot
okay, so we agree that there are objective moral values.. we just disagree on where they come from..
can you please try and explain again (in layman's terms) how they originate from this natural world, and why we have a duty to pay them any attention?





@ Stevil
Quote - "And you recognise that there is no evidence for any objective values"

I recognise that there is no empirical evidence, for any objective value... ie. it can't be found in a test tube

This is not to say that there is no evidence.... there are other forms of evidence, my own personal experience is one of

I'm just reacting based on what input YOU are giving. I'm not making a claim rational choice is the best choice always... You were implying that there should always be a rational choice to choose early on in this topic. I don't agree with it and don't think you should... Because as I said, it's impossible to know the rational choice. I don't think there should be a set qualified answer but you seem to act as if there ought to be.

Again... You ignore defining anything. There us no getting into your mind on this topic until YOU define how these concepts are reached. How do you define what is valued? How do you tell what is the rational choice? How do you define what the self serving choice is?

Stevil Seems more or less to be describing the social contract in a weak sense. It's just about consequences that could lead things a way you don't desire in your social order.. Which when stable, helps you be self serving to your desired levels.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ClydeLee's post
30-07-2014, 06:50 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2014 07:23 AM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Stevil
can you address this?


QUOTE - " I have no interest in imposing my beliefs onto other people." (.....you've already demonstrated this ain't completely true; "I strongly support laws against rape")

- If this world is ultimately valueless, how is there any other way to go about living your life without imposing your own "beliefs"(strange choice of a word to use - aren't they your preferences?) onto everyone you meet!?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 07:46 AM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(30-07-2014 06:50 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  @Stevil
can you address this?


QUOTE - " I have no interest in imposing my beliefs onto other people." (.....you've already demonstrated this ain't completely true; "I strongly support laws against rape")

- If this world is ultimately valueless, how is there any other way to go about living your life without imposing your own "beliefs"(strange choice of a word to use - aren't they your preferences?) onto everyone you meet!?

Some of your statements are beginning to sound rather alarming. How do we know we can trust you to treat us morally?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(30-07-2014 06:50 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  QUOTE - " I have no interest in imposing my beliefs onto other people." (.....you've already demonstrated this ain't completely true; "I strongly support laws against rape")

- If this world is ultimately valueless, how is there any other way to go about living your life without imposing your own "beliefs"(strange choice of a word to use - aren't they your preferences?) onto everyone you meet!?
Just because I lack moral beliefs, it doesn't mean that I want to be killed or raped. Murder and rape are a threat to my life and that of my loved ones.
The consequences of this threat is that I am motivated to live in a society that strongly discourages these things, and thus improves my own safety.
In contrast, does outlawing abortion or prostitution or incest or polygamy improve my own safety?
Whether I am for or against these things is beside the point. Whether these things are right or wrong is irrelevant. My safety comes first and foremost. If I am to live in a society, as a basic requirement, I do need that society to have some basic rules to protect me and my loved ones. Society could potentially be very dangerous.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-07-2014, 12:44 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
@Stevil

so speaking, just as a moral nihilist (I don't care about your own personal preferences - just as I imagine you don't care about my favourite colour) would you agree with the notion "that everything is permitted"?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-07-2014, 12:58 AM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 12:44 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  would you agree with the notion "that everything is permitted"?
What do you mean by "permitted"?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/permitted
Quote:1. To allow the doing of (something); consent to: permit the sale of alcoholic beverages.
2. To grant consent or leave to (someone); authorize: permitted him to explain.
3. To afford opportunity or possibility for: weather that permits sailing.
If we think about "to allow", "to grant", "to afford opportunity"
I'd have to ask, whom is it that you think is giving the allowance, the granting, the affording, the permission?

Whom is this authority you speak of?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: