Naturalism = Nihilism?
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31-07-2014, 09:48 AM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 09:47 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I have no idea whether the OP has replied to me or not. So, I'm bored and moving on.

That's the spirit! Hedonist!

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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31-07-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 08:22 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 07:21 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I agree - thought, how can one even be taught how to think without "ought"(value) statements?


...........A moral nihilist can't even consistently say, that one ought to value; reason, science, evidence or anything for that matter!

Yes they can.... That's what distinguishes a moral nihilist from simply a nihilist.

You made that clear earlier, but now you act like you don't know what you're talking about.
Yep, he's well and truly left the ranch.

(31-07-2014 09:43 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Most children derive their morals from the example of heir parents and peers.
I'm hoping my kids realise that moral beliefs are unnecessary.

(31-07-2014 09:43 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  but they are always watching the other humans around them and are able to even see the consequences of the actions of others, not just their own, and will adjust accordingly (example, seeing one's sibling get in trouble for something).
Yes, focusing on real consequences is what keeps life real, what makes decision making and risk analysis rational.

(31-07-2014 09:43 AM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Indoctrination cannot easily compete with the reality of first hand experience. I taught my kids how to think critically and they seem ok so far. Teaching them to know when someone else's claims sound dubious goes a long way toward inoculating them against unhealthy thinking.
I lie to my kids every now and then. They have worked out for themselves when to be skeptical and when to seek verification. It is beautiful to watch kids work shit out for themselves rather than to indoctrinate them. Kids are really very capable creatures.
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31-07-2014, 01:20 PM
Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 01:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm hoping my kids realise that moral beliefs are unnecessary.

I think we understand each other. I use the word "morals" in a different sense here than a religious person would. I consider them an agreement between people on how we would like each other to behave. It's usually mostly unspoken. And, because each set of people is different, the agreement changes fluidly from one situation to the next as needs change.

(31-07-2014 01:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I lie to my kids every now and then. They have worked out for themselves when to be skeptical and when to seek verification. It is beautiful to watch kids work shit out for themselves rather than to indoctrinate them. Kids are really very capable creatures.

Agreed. But some guidance is usually necessary. Some parents do freak out though and try too hard to "protect" them from the entire world.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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31-07-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 01:20 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(31-07-2014 01:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm hoping my kids realise that moral beliefs are unnecessary.

I think we understand each other. I use the word "morals" in a different sense here than a religious person would. I consider them an agreement between people on how we would like each other to behave. It's usually mostly unspoken. And, because each set of people is different, the agreement changes fluidly from one situation to the next as needs change.
Yeah, I often hear people make claims such as the "morality of society".
But really society is just a bunch of interacting individuals, each with their own opinions.
We don't have to be in agreement and often we aren't.
Many of the times we just let it slide (because it has no impact on us) e.g. if nietzsche101 or other various people want to indoctrinate their children, it's not the approach I would go down. But that is their lives and their children, not mine. It's their choice not mine. Not my place to judge.

Sometimes however a person's actions conflict with my life, in this case we either negotiate a compromise or we fight it out and one of us wins and the other doesn't. That is the realities of life.
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31-07-2014, 04:04 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2014 04:22 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
All "ought", or "value", or "perspective"(whatever word we want to use) statements are moral claims!!!

you "ought" to be reasonable.
you "ought" be tolerant.
you "ought" not indoctrinate your children.
you "ought" not judge how others live their lives.

This is what no one here understands! you guys are just inconsistent/ignorant of your own philosophies!!!!



I'll say it again. "You want your cake and to eat it to"
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31-07-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 04:04 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  All "ought", or "value", or "perspective"(whatever word we want to use) statements are moral claims!!!

you "ought" to go to school.
you "ought" not lie.
you "ought" to be reasonable.
you "ought" be tolerant.
you "ought" not indoctrinate your children.

This is what no one here understands! your just inconsistent/ignorant of your own philosophies!!!!
Who is making ought claims?
You can do what you like. If your actions impact me then I might react to them (consequence), if they don't then I probably won't react.
I make no claims as to what you ought to do. You are a grown up, it's for you to make your own decisions.
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31-07-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
So you agree now, that a moral nihilist can't make "ought" claims?

because you said "he's well and truly left the ranch."......... when I said they can't!?
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31-07-2014, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2014 05:01 PM by ClydeLee.)
Re: RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 04:31 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  So you agree now, that a moral nihilist can't make "ought" claims?

because you said "he's well and truly left the ranch."......... when I said they can't!?

You understand how group conversations work right? I stated a disagreement with that ought claim and made an overall comment about your attitude. He doesn't have to agree with the initial ought comment of mine to agree with the statement about your demeanor. So to jump to conclude he agrees to the ought statement is a bit of an uncertainty judgment. I don't know if he agrees to that. Stevil may disagree with it as his view is different than mine, even though we agree on some things in this thread.


I do think I CAN make an ought claim. Do I think this ought stems from a higher power? No. Do I acknowledge my view comes from myself? Yes, and that doesn't make me invalid as a moral nihilist to do so. I intentionally don't make many ought statements because I know my view is not going to be always correct through my rational reasoning. I don't expect everyone should follow an ought claim I make nor do I expect to follow many given to me. I don't see how this is any shot in my philosophy. That would take reasoning and a logically demonstrated point.

A nihilist can't make a ought claim.. Because he wouldn't be a nihilist then if he found value in something. But a moral nihilist can define value through their own perspective. So making the ought claim doesn't contradict or contrast with anything of their philosophy.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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31-07-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
(31-07-2014 04:31 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  So you agree now, that a moral nihilist can't make "ought" claims?

because you said "he's well and truly left the ranch."......... when I said they can't!?
Let's put things into context.

Your statement was
(31-07-2014 07:21 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  ...........A moral nihilist can't even consistently say, that one ought to value; reason, science, evidence or anything for that matter!
I haven't made any claims that people ought to value reason, ought to value science, ought to value evidence.

You have claimed that you have faith in your belief in objective morality due to your personal experiences.
my response was "Personal experience is a poor way to gain knowledge especially if you are seeking objective facts, such as objective morals. "
I didn't say that you were morally wrong in your approach. I merely expressed my own opinion that I thought it was a poor way to gain knowledge of objective facts.
I personally see the value in the scientific method with regards to objectivity and discovery and distinguishing this from subjectivity and imagination.
But there is nothing morally right or wrong with going with either approach. I don't consider you to be a morally bad person because you choose to use belief and personal experience over the scientific method in order to attain some of your knowledge. You can do what you want. I (as a moral nihilist) make no claims as to what you ought to do (from a moral sense).
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31-07-2014, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2014 09:58 PM by nietzsche101.)
RE: Naturalism = Nihilism?
I'm not gonna waste any more energy on this forum, most of you don't see the full implications of what "god is dead" truly means!

and I can't even have a discussion with those that do(Stevil) because all they can say is "you have your way, I have mine... both are equal"

and we're just left in one big subjective mess! talking, just for the sake of it!




All I want to say is, that "naturalism" is not science! ......it is a philosophy!!

It is the metaphysical assumption that metaphysical principals do not exist!


And I leave, with a quote.....

Ted Bundy - "Then I learned that all moral judgments are "value judgments," that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either "right" or "wrong." I even read somewhere that the Chief Justice of the United States had written that the American Constitution expressed nothing more than collective value judgments. Believe it or not, I figured out for myself - what apparently the Chief Justice couldn't figure out for himself"”that if the rationality of one value judgment was zero, multiplying it by millions would not make it one whit more rational. Nor is there any "reason" to obey the law for anyone, like myself, who has the boldness and daring "” the strength of character "” to throw off its shackles. ... I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable value judgment" that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these "others"? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog's life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as "moral" or "good" and others as "immoral" or "bad"? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me"”after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self."






peace.
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