Naturalism = Nihilism?

[Stevil]

(31-07-2014 09:55 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I'm not gonna waste any more energy on this forum, most of you don't see the full implications of what "god is dead" truly means!

and I can't even have a discussion with those that do(Stevil) because all they can say is "you have your way, I have mine... both are equal"

and we're just left in one big subjective mess! talking, just for the sake of it!

Well, actually no.
You get yourself into a mess when you claim to have objective morality and then show the desire to go out and try to enforce that onto others.
If you took an approach of MYOB then you wouldn't be in such a mess.

(31-07-2014 09:55 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  All I want to say is, that "naturalism" is not science! ......it is a philosophy!!

It is the metaphysical assumption that metaphysical principals do not exist!


And I leave, with a quote.....

Ted Bundy -

And now, like a stupid idiot, you refer to serial killer because your confirmation bias tells you that since he is a serial killer and also a moral nihilist therefore all moral nihilists are serial killers.
I've heard this line from theists before. Stalin was an atheist, Mao was an atheist therefore atheism leads to murderous dictatorship.
Confirmation bias galore.
Open your mind and start thinking beyond your own personal beliefs. You have constructed a strawman, and like the unfortunate pigeon, you are without a clue, just knocking over all the chess pieces.

[nietzsche101]

one more video... and I'm out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOIWRiC3vQ

[Stevil]

(01-08-2014 12:55 AM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  one more video... and I'm out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOIWRiC3vQ

LOL

And finally our L4J finally reveals himself.

[Chas]

(31-07-2014 09:55 PM)nietzsche101 Wrote:  I'm not gonna waste any more energy on this forum, most of you don't see the full implications of what "god is dead" truly means!

and I can't even have a discussion with those that do(Stevil) because all they can say is "you have your way, I have mine... both are equal"

and we're just left in one big subjective mess! talking, just for the sake of it!

Good, fewer disingenuous threads to wade through.

[ClydeLee]

I guess it's easier to crack than actually respond to any questions laid out. Well done son.

[Stevil]

Yeah, this thread is dead.
This isn't for nietzsche101's sake, the guy was clearly here to try and recruit for Jesus in his weird way and obviously wasn't interested in exploring any philosophical ideas.
What I have to say, probably nothing that isn't already obvious to us but anyway I find value in putting my thoughts to paper.

The idea that without moral belief or moral truths that anything goes, this may only make sense to a person whom believes in objective morality. A person whom thinks they only do things because they believe them to be good and avoid things because they believe them to be bad. For this person perhaps the real life consequences seem irrelevant, or perhaps they simply choose to forget about that aspect when constructing this strawman.

For them then, perhaps the quote by Ted Bundy makes sense, that without belief in immorality that a person would have nothing stopping them from committing mass murder.
Of course those of us who understand the realities of real life and the consequences of our behaviors, we could easily have predicted the outcome of a prison term and premature life termination at the hands of the state. For the selfish moral nihilist (or the atheist - without god's divine command) it would not be in their self interest to follow in Ted Bundy's footsteps.

[avalon]

(02-08-2014 03:10 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, this thread is dead.
This isn't for nietzsche101's sake, the guy was clearly here to try and recruit for Jesus in his weird way and obviously wasn't interested in exploring any philosophical ideas.
What I have to say, probably nothing that isn't already obvious to us but anyway I find value in putting my thoughts to paper.

The idea that without moral belief or moral truths that anything goes, this may only make sense to a person whom believes in objective morality. A person whom thinks they only do things because they believe them to be good and avoid things because they believe them to be bad. For this person perhaps the real life consequences seem irrelevant, or perhaps they simply choose to forget about that aspect when constructing this strawman.

For them then, perhaps the quote by Ted Bundy makes sense, that without belief in immorality that a person would have nothing stopping them from committing mass murder.
Of course those of us who understand the realities of real life and the consequences of our behaviors, we could easily have predicted the outcome of a prison term and premature life termination at the hands of the state. For the selfish moral nihilist (or the atheist - without god's divine command) it would not be in their self interest to follow in Ted Bundy's footsteps.

The person who believes in objective morality can also be dangerous. Nietzsche101 said:

Quote:I chose to do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing!
Just for the sake of my conscience!

and

Quote:What I was trying to make clear to you; is that these objective values(if real) must have their foundation in something beyond this natural world!

When anyone credits their own conscience as coming from a supernatural source (ie God) they are unlikely to change their mind based on 'merely human' reasoning. Their moral code ends up being their interpretation of a bronze age book, a book which encourages believers to follow divine commands without question no matter how horrific those commands may seem.

[Stevil]

(02-08-2014 05:37 AM)avalon Wrote:  The person who believes in objective morality can also be dangerous.

When anyone credits their own conscience as coming from a supernatural source (ie God) they are unlikely to change their mind based on 'merely human' reasoning. Their moral code ends up being their interpretation of a bronze age book, a book which encourages believers to follow divine commands without question no matter how horrific those commands may seem.

Yes agreed, and they are motivated to use force to get everyone to conform to their morality. People go to prison or put to death for being gay. Women get put in prison for having sex outside of marriage (being raped), witches get burned at the stake, healthy fallopian tubes get cut out rather than removing embryos. AIDS infected society gets told not to use condoms, holy wars get fought...

[Cardinal Smurf]

I thought Ted Bundy represented a case where moral nihilism was coupled with a complete lack of empathy and compassion. Is this not the case?

This is usually a toxic combination. But moral nihilism on its own is not necessarily dangerous. It can enable other behaviors, but as was just mentioned above, so can objective absolutism.

[Stevil]

(05-08-2014 12:45 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  I thought Ted Bundy represented a case where moral nihilism was coupled with a complete lack of empathy and compassion. Is this not the case?

This is usually a toxic combination. But moral nihilism on its own is not necessarily dangerous. It can enable other behaviors, but as was just mentioned above, so can objective absolutism.

Moral nihilists don't have an idea of right or wrong, so they never base their decisions off this.

Instead moral nihilists base their decisions off there perception of the real consequences of their actions.

Perhaps Ted used to believe in morality, subsequently learned that morality was just a belief system and hence rejected it, then confussed himself by thinking that there was no reason not to go around killing people.
It could be likened to a religious person realising that god doesn't exist and then confusing themselves by concluding that if there is no god then there is no reason to be good.

I would think a great deal of lack of empathy is probably also in the mix