Nazi alert and other people's reactions
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01-02-2013, 07:59 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 02:19 PM)kim Wrote:  I'll need to go back to being a bit more adventurous, since it is rare these days for me to peak at threads with the word "Nazi" in the title.
That's funny, kim!

I am the same way -- would not have looked at the thread but for seeing Luminon's name.

That made me curious because he was one of the very few who responded to my "Proposal for a New Social Contract" thread.
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06-02-2013, 10:11 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 10:44 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 12:32 PM)Zat Wrote:  Here is a link to one particulate lifestyle that tries to minimize benefit from, and contribution to, the powers-that-be:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/activism/alt...hers-redux

You can see, from the number of replies, how much interest was exhibited in it.
I've looked over that article. It indeed minimizes the dependency on the powers-that-be. But at the same time, it solves nothing. To me it looks like an article on "How to be easy to ignore". I'm glad there is not much interest in it, because this is no way to win on mass scale. The only way to win is to take back our institutions, make them serve us again, or dismantle them if they can't serve us. Institutions are like machines. They have no rights, they have the right to exist only as long as they are useful. If they don't serve us - we need to kick the people out of them - which is inhumane, unless we first establish some social safety net.

The Libertarian way is to apply cost-benefit analysis to everything. This is admirable, but if we do that diligently, we'd have to make a cost-benefit analysis of our whole way of living, of capitalism, and to include the social costs of using money, the cost of social problems and natural calamities.

If we see we need to change this, we must also see we can't change it just by the way we manage our household. All useful ideas today depend on spreading and interconnection.

The following is my thought, partially inspired by reading of Voyage to Kazohinia, partially by my lifetime habit to use ideas from everywhere in new ways and new areas, annoying experts in both areas in the process. Two differing worldviews are expressed between the main hero and his guide Zatamon - and I see a connection between them. I might as well serve as a translator from one to another.
The evolution of consciousness and society is a progress from total ignorance, unawareness, separation and non-responsiveness towards a greater awareness, sensitivity, responsiveness (responsibility) and so on.

Awareness of what? Of reality, of other people, of their needs. What we call love, friendship, art, literature, nationalism, loyalty, alliances, these are all imperfect, partial, particular, limited realizations of awareness / unity. They are small lessons of unity.

If we lived in a state of non-differentiation or perfect unity, of primal chaos or perfect order, there would be seemingly no conflict. If we introduce tiny little bits of unity (connection, relationships) into chaos, we perhaps increase order, but we also cause differentiation. With differentiation necessarily comes conflict as a medium of communication. For example, in primal stages, conflict of violence is the only language that a barbarian can understand and speak with. In later stages the conflict is mediated by finer means, through discussion and art - literature, music, film, theater, which results in an easier way to harmony and beauty.
This principle of Harmony Through Conflict or Beauty and Art is a very powerful influence in humanity, perhaps the most overt, most powerful one, though science and concrete knowledge is also very powerful today and there are always several other influences.
Beauty and art could be defined as that which conveys an increase in awareness, a demonstration of a real, natural principle perhaps, or an aspect of social truth. This noticing something, this increase in awareness, is aesthetic and pleasant - or fascinating. Even if it portrays a tragedy, as much art does. This advancement in awareness is a sign of progress. And so the progress, good, truth and beauty can be essentially summed up as everything that brings about the development of consciousness and evil as everything that hinders and confuses it.
In any case, there is this mediating influence, reconciliation and blending of opposites.

All evolution of consciousness - awareness progresses in stages from chaos to order. Firstly, a hemicycle of Individualization, the two stages of Differentiation and Stabilization. The second hemicycle is Collectivization, consisting of two stages - Group-integration and Capitalization. Thus is the cycle completed, the relative perfection is achieved. A new cycle may begin, where we set a completely different, higher standard of perfection. There is a period of breakdown of old culture perhaps, less or more chaotic, and we go through the same stages again in a different way.
These two stages are divided to four. But they can easily be divided into twelve. There is even a division into three hundred and sixty stages, 360 lessons of consciousness.


It could be said that all living and aware things - people, societies and whole humanity - are somewhere on this wheel, in some way. Some are ahead, some behind, as the bell curve of averages says. There are of course cycles within cycles within cycles, ruling parts of our life, our whole life or the life of a nation. These combinations make our lives into stories. It seems like a chaos, but these cycles are today very much shared by most of people and so we're on the same page of a story perhaps.



OK, back to the point. We are in a stage where many separate groups exist and we can only win our harmony, human rights and power over the institutions through collectivization, through connection and cooperation. The institutions only keep us down through the tactics of divide and conquer.

Already different people connect across continents. Even I, a crazy, vague-minded, permanently hallucinating guy connect here with the rational people of science. The lesson today is, that we must connect and we must focus on that which unites us, not that which sets us apart. We must form groups and contact other groups and people of different (yucky) opinion and establish a network of cooperation in the things that we agree on. And the things we disagree in, we can discuss, we can prove objective points, or we can agree to disagree and make deals on how to work around that and continue in cooperation.
I assure you, it will be disgusting and frustrating for all parties involved, to have anything to do with the unbelievers and believers. But even if our small group does everything right, it will not succeed because it is only a small group.

Already I might start to serve as a connection between my people, an activist group formed around a presidential candidate, certain foreign officer and the local Pirate party. I see there many shared values and like-minded people. I don't have much idea of what I'm doing, but I know we need to connect and other people in my group have a better idea of how to connect and cooperate.

(as for the stage of Capitalization, I believe that refers to... a common project. Having attained the unity and knowledge, we do not dwell on it, but we use it as a resource to develop ourselves further as a whole, to achieve something as a group, greater than ourselves or the group itself. This shared project requires efficient use of resources, obviously. I believe the Voyage to Kazohinia symbolically portrays a society that achieved Group-Integration, but got stuck on it, did not use this achievement to pursue a greater, collective one. And the lack of emotions too, that is the author's artistic intention to convey a particular lesson, not a requirement of Group-Integration! Not at all. The society of Kazo is more perfect than we have in many aspects, but I believe both I and the author know there are even better ways to do things.

The Individualization is an absolutely necessary stage. It succeeded the chaos of Differentiation, in which we did not know what we are, what we want, what we don't want, what is real, what is not. It wasn't a complete chaos anymore, but let's say it was a large degree of atomization, of standing on our own as individuals. This was a natural state of things - and in such a state we do two things: We connect together as individuals and we pay the cost for every step we make. If the step was good, we get our money back, if the step was bad, we get poorer. But in all we do we are hindered by the requirement of money - or other mechanism of action and reaction. Action and pain, action and courts and prisons, action and social rebuke. This mechanism is of course unnecessary when we're not ignorant, when we know what we need and what others need... When we follow Kazo Smile

The concept of "soul" in the book is equivalent to our emotional nature. This dominating influence of humanity is one of subjective validity. When we feel an emotion, it is subjectively valid - even if it was completely unjustified. It is a development stage between feeling nothing or very little (as a plant or an insect would), and between objective awareness of everything. It is an instrument of feeling. However, evil arises when the instrument takes control over the user, and the user becomes an instrument of the instrument. Kazohinia describes a society that gave up this particular instrument of "soul" (emotion) altogether. The common society is one that did put the cart in front of the horse, Behins that became slaves of the instrument of feeling and self-propagating subjective validity. (memetic epidemia)

Probably in the next moments of reading Voyage to Kazohinia I'll find out that the author thought of pretty much everything that I have thought of. I'm still in the first quarter.
)

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06-02-2013, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 10:56 AM by Zat.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(06-02-2013 10:11 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I've looked over that article. It indeed minimizes the dependency on the powers-that-be. But at the same time, it solves nothing. To me it looks like an article on "How to be easy to ignore". I'm glad there is not much interest in it, because this is no way to win on mass scale. The only way to win is to take back our institutions, make them serve us again, or dismantle them if they can't serve us. Institutions are like machines. They have no rights, they have the right to exist only as long as they are useful.
Luminon, I admire your optimism, even if I don't share it. You are young (I assume) and young people should be optimistic. I know I was.

After a lifetime of reading, thinking, experiencing, I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to win.

Evolution is a very slow process, while technology advances at an exponential rate. It will soon overwhelm our defenses and a major crash will follow. How deep is anyone's guess but it will be between de-industrialization and extinction.

Take a look at John Casti's book: "X-Events" to see the looming catastrophes waiting for us.

You can't just blame the 'system' or the 'leaders' -- the citizenry is an active participant in the process as I explained before. The article I linked to earlier is one attempt to minimize this participation.
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06-02-2013, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 11:12 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(06-02-2013 10:37 AM)Zat Wrote:  Luminon, I admire your optimism, even if I don't share it. You are young (I assume) and young people should be optimistic. I know I was.

After a lifetime of reading, thinking, experiencing, I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to win.

Evolution is a very slow process, while technology advances at an exponential rate. It will soon overwhelm our defenses and a major crash will follow. How deep is anyone's guess but it will be between de-industrialization and extinction.

Take a look at John Casti's book: "X-Events" to see the looming catastrophes waiting for us.

You can't just blame the 'system' or the 'leaders' -- the citizenry is an active participant in the process as I explained before.
There are two evolutions. Evolution of genes of populations and the evolution of consciousness. The first one is extremely slow and the second one used to be extremely slow too - but it speeded up through the Enlightenment era up until today where it is extremely fast. We can not use the standards of how long things used to last. There were dictatorships in Africa that lasted decades and they tumble over right now!

Yes, we're in a bad situation. However, I'd say at this moment the force for good and the force for evil are equally strong. And the force for evil will not become any stronger. Old things don't become any newer. We're in an ugly stalemate situation with a bomb ticking under our feet. But it only means we must fight to win, nothing else. I am young (24 years) and optimistic, because I think we can't afford pessimism. Buying guns, ammo, cans of food and building beton shelters will not solve anything. That's a defeatistic attitude that the old order would like to promote to weaken and divide us. It's a popular theme of Hollywood catastrophic movies, paid for by selling the fear, distraction and status quo. We can not believe the media. The media are paid by the governments or private businessmen and they do not let through the news that don't fit their interests. For example, the government of Iceland has been taken back by the people, the criminals who got the country into debt were punished and the Iceland now has the institute of referendum that allows to recall any politician any time. Plus more changes like that. The new constitution was developed by a democratically chosen group of 500 common people, before it was a copy of a Danish one. You won't see any message about this in media.

I believe we can only win through connection of groups and cooperation. I already see this process happening. In podcasts I hear of unifying atheists of America. I even hear of unifying with Christians - on the basis that both Christians and atheists respect the Constitution of United States.
And I'd say, and this is my personal opinion for which I have no evidence whatsoever, that we are not alone in this struggle, though we alone must act.

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06-02-2013, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 11:25 AM by Zat.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
You had your velvet revolution. So did the Hungarians. So did the Egyptians. The slogans change, the attitudes don't.

Eric Margolis (another respected journalist) just came back from the Middle East. This is what he had to say:
=================================
"The Mideast is stumbling into one of its most dangerous crisis in decades. I’m just back from the region – and as an old Mideast hand, I am very worried. This region is always tense, but right now a series of separate conflicts are rapidly beginning to intersect. We see the Mideast, North Africa and the Sahara buffeted by revolutions and counter-revolutions. Old colonial powers France and Britain, and the US, are trying to reassert their domination in the region. The jihadist are back.

In a brazen act of war, Israel launched airstrikes on Syria last Wednesday in a clear attempt to worsen the crisis in that war-torn nation and challenge Syria’s ally, Iran. Israel’s forces are on high alert and may invade Syria, whose strategic Golan Heights were seized and annexed by Israel. Will more Syrian land follow?
.................
Meanwhile, Egypt threatens to turn into another Syria. The chief of staff of Egypt’s armed forces just warned his strife-torn nation is on the “brink of collapse.” Conservative Arab nations, the US and Britain are fuelling a counter-revolution by Mubarakist forces and Christians. Egypt’s economy has all but collapsed, igniting violent social unrest. A coup may be imminent.

Syria is teetering on the brink of national collapse. The Assad government has no popularity beyond its Alawi base, but half of Syrians don’t want to live in an Islamic state and fear what will happen to them if insurgent forces seize power. Syria’s economy has almost ceased to function. This bloody civil war threatens to turn Syria into a larger version of the ghastly 1975-1990 Lebanese civil war that I covered.

Russia is growling in the background. Syria, recall, is as close to Russia’s southern border as northern Mexico is to Texas. Washington is underestimating Russia’ growing anger. Israel is still determined to push the US into war against Iran. The Turks can’t decide whether to be neutrals or reborn Ottomans. Caution: danger ahead."
=======================================
Read the rest (if you wish) at http://ericmargolis.com/2013/02/just-bac...y-worried/
And, read the "X-Events" book I recommended, after which we can talk some more, if you want to.
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