Nazi alert and other people's reactions
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01-02-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 09:54 AM)Zat Wrote:  Funny how one's expectations are often disappointed.

Based on past experience, I expected a lot of arguments with my last post on this thread and -- not a word -- even though I made 'outrageous' claims. Either everybody who read it agreed with me, or they thought it was so far out of the box that no answer was possible (or worth bothering with).

In either case, I think I pretty well covered it, at least from my own perspective.

Since it was only an experiment, no harm done to my ego! Big Grin
Now you see why I like disagreement, discussion and controversy! Smile My idea of hell is a place where everyone agrees with me.
We need some Libertarians to convert Lecture_preist Smile


(28-01-2013 12:54 PM)Zat Wrote:  This is the hardest to convince people about. They have lived ALL their lives under some ideology, one kind or another, and they just can not conceive of an ideologyless existence. More precisely: they see it as a choice between ideology and chaos (a total lack of convictions). If you have any convictions, you are an idealogue, by definition.

If it were possible to make them try to approach the social arena as an engineering problem, they might see that it all boils down to common sense and basic arithmatic. However, social engineering has a bad name due to misuse over history, so don't even try to mention it.
Yep, my first encounter with the world was Bruce Sterling's The Hacker Crackdown. Good idea, I'll focus on the engineering aspect. I might call it Engineering Politics Smile

(28-01-2013 12:54 PM)Zat Wrote:  Believe me, I tried it and tried it and tried till the cows came home, without any effect. We are so jaded with statistics that numbers don't mean anything to anyone any more. You may cite the ten million children starving to death every year and they yawn. You may mention the thousands of nuclear missiles on hair trigger alert aimed at their children and they don't think that something horrible is happening and some new thinking is required. You may mention climate change and the looming catastrophe and they say: shit happens! You may mention the UN report according to which 90% of our resources is WASTED on non-productive activities (mostly related to money) and they will tell you that you can't exist without money, so what is your problem? Not all of them, not all the time, but nobody (almost nobody) seems to realize that something drastically new is required because trying the same old thing(s) that never worked before, won't save our collective asses.
I'd rather put them in front of Zeitgeist Addendum movie, it saves time.

(28-01-2013 12:54 PM)Zat Wrote:  There are a number of popular misconceptions that are almost impossible to make people examine, so deeply ingrained they are (heavily spread and supported by the powers that be).

Here are a few:
- Governments are inefficient, corrupt, useless, dangerous -- the enemy #1
- People would starve to death without money.
- People would not make an effort, unless they are 'motivated' by hunger, poverty, insecurity and competition.
- People do not know how to intelligently organize a large project (in spite of counter examples like world wars, moon landing, etc).
- Human nature prevents us from co-operating in intelligent, scientific ways.
- Any effort to organize all of society into a well-functioning unit is TOTALITARIANISM!
- It is impossible to base a social organization (government, economics, etc) on basic principles, logic and simple arithmetic.
Right on, but why is the #1 a misconception? It PERFECTLY fits on my government.
Right around the New Year, my president released thousands of criminals from prisons. He meant to release his buddies in crime who got caught stealing state funds in the 90's. So he released them all together with countless other crooks and thugs. Those then went to mock their victims while the police just watched. The rest of my government isn't any better, we get just marginally smaller scandals every year.
Needless to say, there will be an action against the pen-stealing president to the Constitutional court.
There will be two possibilities.
- The Constitutional court will deny the action and we'll have an official confirmation of this country's lawless regime. This will allow the citizens to legitimately riot, pillage, burn and lynch. No more velvet revolutions. Only I'm afraid that the balls of my nation were sold for German government bonds together with 50 tons of National Bank's gold back in 90's. Al-Quaeda knows why to avoid my country, they leave my government alone because it does much more harm than they ever could.
- The Constitutional court will agree with the people, he will magically transport the criminals back to the prison, charge the president with high treason and wave a warning finger at him - because that's the only thing you can do to a person who has indemnity and does not sit at the castle anymore. In best of best worlds, the president would be at least declared a persona non grata and exiled.

(28-01-2013 12:54 PM)Zat Wrote:  The reason I consider Kazohinia the most important book I have ever read is the following: It was the first book that convinced me, that all the world's problems are both artificial and unsolvable. Life is so incredibly simple that we could do it extremely well, with a millionth of the energy exerted now, if that is what we in fact wanted.

As Zatamon (my hero) said when Gulliver told him about the different political and economic systems: "Does it matter in what system you are sick?"

The solutions to mankind's problems are so obvious and so simple that the only reason they don't get solved, millennia after millennia, is the fact that nobody wants to solve them. Not the leaders and not
their supporters.

This knowledge liberated my mind from the compulsion of trying to figure out what would work. I had my answer: nothing would work with our species at this moment of evolutionary development.

If you PM me an email address, I can email you a zippeed file with the English translation. Sorry, but I do not have a link any more.
In this case, Zeitgeist Addendum would be something like a modern day's Kazohinia. Only with less humour Smile If only I wasn't afraid to read more into it, considering there's about a dozen books I should read first, for the Bachelor's thesis and admittance exams for the Master's sociology course on Faculty of Humanist studies.
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01-02-2013, 11:50 AM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 11:10 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Right on, but why is the #1 a misconception? It PERFECTLY fits on my government.
I tried to explain it in the context of North America.

The explanation doesn't work everywhere.

Quote:It is supposed to be our government.
Elected by us, free to participate in it, staffed by human beings just
as we are, having a mandate (the constitution) to carry out and protect.
So what is wrong with that?

Yes, of course governments are corrupted, not by the power they have but
by the bastards holding the money bags and bribing, blackmailing,
obstructing, paralizing, using as their own private source of income and
influence. Governments are not-by-nature-corrupt -- they are corrupt
because we, the citizens allow them to be corrupted, by our laziness,
refusing to participate actively in the democratic process, other than
casting a vote once every 2-4 years, even if we bother to do even that.

I read it somewhere: "Every nation has the government it deserves."

There is some truth in it.
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01-02-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 11:50 AM)Zat Wrote:  I read it somewhere: "Every nation has the government it deserves."

There is some truth in it.
There may be truth, but what kind of lesson is it? How did we deserve this government and how can we deserve a better one? Are we supposed to wait and suffer our punishment, or do we have to demolish our historical government buildings (the Castle and the Magpie's academy ) to get at the magpies inside? (yes, pun intended)
How does a nation take a grip of itself? Indeed how, if we're divided on right wing and left wing and everyone's paranoid about the other guy being a communist or fascist? "nah, he just want to get on the top." - is another misconception.

I've tried to get out of anti-Communists the definition of a Communist. Apparently, those who question them are Communists. It made for an interesting Facebook discussion.
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01-02-2013, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 01:45 PM by Zat.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Citizens are often bribed with their own money. Most of them, most of the time, accept the bribe.

Citizens have choices in their lifestyle decisions -- most of them go for short term gratification as opposed to long term principles.

Citizens stay away from civic duties if possible, because it takes time and effort to participate.

Here is a link to one particulate lifestyle that tries to minimize benefit from, and contribution to, the powers-that-be:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/activism/alt...hers-redux

You can see, from the number of replies, how much interest was exhibited in it.
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01-02-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 11:50 AM)Zat Wrote:  I read it somewhere: "Every nation has the government it deserves."

There is some truth in it.
That may be true for certain first-world countries, but what about North Korea? What about China? What about African countries that are torn apart by civil war, allowing warlords to become the unofficial "government"? What about countries in which elections are being manipulated? Consider

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01-02-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 01:18 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 11:50 AM)Zat Wrote:  I read it somewhere: "Every nation has the government it deserves."

There is some truth in it.
That may be true for certain first-world countries, but what about North Korea? What about China? What about African countries that are torn apart by civil war, allowing warlords to become the unofficial "government"? What about countries in which elections are being manipulated? Consider


No one deserves North Korea.


Well, maybe the Tea Partiers. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 11:50 AM)Zat Wrote:  I tried to explain it in the context of North America.

The explanation doesn't work everywhere.

As I said before...
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01-02-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 09:54 AM)Zat Wrote:  Funny how one's expectations are often disappointed.
Based on past experience, I expected a lot of arguments with my last post on this thread and -- not a word -- even though I made 'outrageous' claims. Either everybody who read it agreed with me, or they thought it was so far out of the box that no answer was possible (or worth bothering with).

In either case, I think I pretty well covered it, at least from my own perspective.

My perspective as well. I suppose some would consider it "outrageous" but it is the very thing I have been trying to articulate cohesively for many years.

Thank you Zat... and Lumi, too! I always enjoy reading Lumi's ideas. Shy

I'll need to go back to being a bit more adventurous, since it is rare these days for me to peak at threads with the word "Nazi" in the title.

When someone puts a cookie in front of me... I have to look at it skeptically so, I only take tiny bites of the nazi cookies... never know what's in them. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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01-02-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
I haven't read any of this thread, I'm too lazy. However I saw mention of The Venus Project.

I am in favour of something like this. Big Grin

2.5 billion seconds total
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01-02-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(01-02-2013 01:27 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 11:50 AM)Zat Wrote:  I tried to explain it in the context of North America.

The explanation doesn't work everywhere.

As I said before...
Seems like I've missed that one. I stand corrected. Smartass

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