Nazi alert and other people's reactions
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27-12-2012, 02:30 AM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2012 02:36 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Thanks Lumi,

Good stuff.

My own minor social experiment in this area is wonderfully revealing.

Watching the shift in people's attitudes from possession-orientated 'me first' to one of sharing and giving, is heart-warming as scarcity is replaced by abundance.

Privacy is an aspect to which I had not given much thought but I observe that there is room for personal privacy ... but less need / desire for it.


In my courses, I cover all the processes required to enable this environment.
These processes need to be managed so there is still a need for governance but this reduces with automation and cultural acceptance.

Generally speaking, I see the likelihood of this succeeding as being linked to the age old challenge of:
symbiosis vs. predator/prey.
merger vs. acquisition.
game theory: split vs steal.

I think the answer lies in implementation at lower levels i.e. families, communities before cities, states.

Our behaviour changes depending on which group we perceive ourselves belonging to.

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27-12-2012, 02:45 AM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(26-12-2012 04:10 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Cool story, bro. Needs more dragon. Laughat
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Good work grasshopper.
The progress is strong in you.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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27-12-2012, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2012 06:32 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(26-12-2012 06:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  You know what it boils down to, what bothers me about that whole idea?

Individualism. You can't be an individual in that scenario. Everything is all the same and boring as heck.
Good. Now I'd like you to look at yourself and the world. What is it that makes you individual, that you don't want to lose? Where's the people's individuality today?
They seem very much the same to me, they grow up, work all their life at something that mostly helps only themselves and only a little, then they retire and get senile. Look at the "individuals" in blue and white collars, getting up in the morning, going to work, going home, watching TV, sleeping...
[Image: 180_porzadek_dnia_durex_casio_nokia_tubo...ilette.jpg]
I think I understand you. We spend at least 8 hours a day working at some uniformly boring job, so we want to hold fast at the little illusory consumer individuality we have. If you realize that, you'll realize how little individuality we have anyway.
All these products have a dozen "alternatives" that serve equivalent purpose and they only differ in how cheapened and fake they are. All these different brands are branded into our psychology, they have a profound marketing effect, but this effect is to pull money out of us, not to give us any additional value. Everything is a dozen times the same thing in a different package. Maybe it's less boring that way for someone, but it's an illusion of choice, it's annoying and wasteful. It wastes the simplicity, our time, attention and world resources for a mere illusion of diverse products. Some things are not worthy of being individual with. Why be an individual, if you can have top quality products possible within available resources, no price tag and maintain the simplicity? If we have simplicity, we can be truly individuals in what really matters, our personality, our life style, our hobbies and work. Simplicity allows us to create a purpose for ourselves, a purpose that is our individuality. When we have a purpose, it does not matter what we eat or wear, but what are we here for. And discovering that is an adventure, discovering yourself if the simplicity allows you to get rid of the meaningless consumer crap that bogs down people today.
You think you are an individual? "That's all bullshit. When you're young, they pump crap in your head... Cinderella, Christianity... Tongue "
Btw, all these stand-alone personal houses you see in the promotional video are supposed to be highly variable and moddable according to people's wishes, built of LEGO-like modules. Nothing is the same and boring. And someone clever will surely do something about that terrible white color... Wink Some layer in the building facade might change color through an electric impulse (some electro-static pigment powder perhaps) into any colors we want or perhaps even patterns.... It's all about good ideas and technology and resouces.
(26-12-2012 07:51 PM)Vosur Wrote:  As far as I see, it's not going to happen anytime soon. In order to function properly, this system would have to be implemented globally. History has shown us over and over again that the different governments as a whole are neither willing, nor able to cooperate even when it comes to comparatively trivial matters such as setting unitary standards for slowing down climate change (United Nations Climate Change Conference). Considering the variety of different views we have among different nations today and the unwillingness to change said views (ex. China, Russia, USA, etc.), I'd say that the probability of a successful global implementation of RBE currently tends towards zero.

It's certainly a good idea to think about new perspectives and possibilities to improve the systems that are currently in place, however, all hope for a change is futile as long as there are no realistic means by which these ideas can be implemented.
If we're fighting to win, it is absolutely necessary to know what are we going to do when we win. Those who don't know it, will only repeat the old order, for having no better ideas, a top-heavy system. We see today cultural changes that have no precedent in history. People are more empowered today than they ever were. In the old order the power was concentrated at the top, within a few hands.This is why there are literally billions of people who will realize that they have a voice and that they can use it. They also have nothing to lose, yet they all need the same thing, food, water, housing, healthcare, education and peace. These are the only things we really need the government for. Within the people is a great potential for change that only makes this possible, realistic and necessary. If they see a solution, they'll demand it.
I suspect a country like Brazil will be among the first in which the informed public opinion awakens. Anyway, it has to happen soon, our ecosystem is very fragile and won't last centuries. We don't have time for a slow change like medieval ages. Screw history, consider how fast things work out today. Fresco and others say, it would take 10 years to rebuild the world.

As for the means, Fresco speaks about the war economy of United States, who simply used the resources to send out 90.000 airplanes per year where they had only 600 in the beginning of WW2. They did some ritual dances of government bonds switcharoo, to appease the gods of money, but it would work just as well without them. Beating the Japanese, I mean. Or beating the poverty. If we have the resources, we can do it. It's merely a question of resources and informed public and political will. The public might be greatly influenced by Fresco's showcase plus if possible some newly built projects under the U.N. These are very powerful and captivating ideas and the mainstream media are right to be afraid to let them through.


DLJ: I totally agree. The old order vs. the new one. Cooperation on all levels vs. competition on all levels. Dammit, I must translate that work of mine, I use ideas from it all the time, ideas stolen from reality of how people and societies work. We have two ways of generating pleasure, gratification and social bonding. The society of RBE is designed to generate the pleasure of social bonding as much as possible. Starting at the deepest level of global cooperation, pooling and sharing/barter of raw resources. What you saw a few paragraphs above, the consumer product labels, that's an orgy of selfish gratification. Scarcity prevents us from sharing and cooperation and it directs our effort towards gratification. When there is no scarcity, the need of gratification loses much of its power. Much like a lion or tiger is happy to play with a human he knows when he's not hungry.

What kind of social experiment do you perform? What courses?

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27-12-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 06:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(26-12-2012 06:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  You know what it boils down to, what bothers me about that whole idea?

Individualism. You can't be an individual in that scenario. Everything is all the same and boring as heck.
Good. Now I'd like you to look at yourself and the world. What is it that makes you individual, that you don't want to lose? Where's the people's individuality today?
They seem very much the same to me, they grow up, work all their life at something that mostly helps only themselves and only a little, then they retire and get senile. Look at the "individuals" in blue and white collars, getting up in the morning, going to work, going home, watching TV, sleeping...
[Image: 180_porzadek_dnia_durex_casio_nokia_tubo...ilette.jpg]
I think I understand you. We spend at least 8 hours a day working at some uniformly boring job, so we want to hold fast at the little illusory consumer individuality we have. If you realize that, you'll realize how little individuality we have anyway.
All these products have a dozen "alternatives" that serve equivalent purpose and they only differ in how cheapened and fake they are. All these different brands are branded into our psychology, they have a profound marketing effect, but this effect is to pull money out of us, not to give us any additional value. Everything is a dozen times the same thing in a different package. Maybe it's less boring that way for someone, but it's an illusion of choice, it's annoying and wasteful. It wastes the simplicity, our time, attention and world resources for a mere illusion of diverse products. Some things are not worthy of being individual with. Why be an individual, if you can have top quality products possible within available resources, no price tag and maintain the simplicity? If we have simplicity, we can be truly individuals in what really matters, our personality, our life style, our hobbies and work. Simplicity allows us to create a purpose for ourselves, a purpose that is our individuality. When we have a purpose, it does not matter what we eat or wear, but what are we here for. And discovering that is an adventure, discovering yourself if the simplicity allows you to get rid of the meaningless consumer crap that bogs down people today.
You think you are an individual? "That's all bullshit. When you're young, they pump crap in your head... Cinderella, Christianity... Tongue "
Btw, all these stand-alone personal houses you see in the promotional video are supposed to be highly variable and moddable according to people's wishes, built of LEGO-like modules. Nothing is the same and boring. And someone clever will surely do something about that terrible white color... Wink Some layer in the building facade might change color through an electric impulse (some electro-static pigment powder perhaps) into any colors we want or perhaps even patterns.... It's all about good ideas and technology and resouces.



Well, I just watched a couple of his clips.

Putting everything physical aside, I do not believe that all people will ever think the same way and fit in the same mold without the serious conditioning of children he casually refers to. I am not a friend of child conditioning to that extent.

I also do not consider social bonding such an important thing, and I would not want it to be the center of my life. If that was the case, I would be out socializing instead of sitting in front of the computer. Not that I have an issue socializing, but I get bored by it quickly.

The pictures of the single homes in the middle of nature are interesting, but with overpopulation the way it is today, how do you figure that is sustainable in the long run? It's not, unless the majority of people opts to live in huge cities and only a few want to live in nature. How are you going to regulate that?

I have never been a 9 to 5 person, so I can't identify with the desire to stop leading such a life style. I find risk taking stimulating, nothing like taking a risk and waiting for the outcome of what you have done. Beats any computer game any day for me. So I lose my ass sometimes, other times I succeed. It adds spice to life, and I would be bored to death in an existance that offers no motive to take risks.

The proposed society seems to me to be structured so that there are no risks, nothing to lose and nothing to gain. It's more like communism than like the Nazi regime you refer to.

So, I would likely enjoy the creativity of creating an unusual home (I live in an octagon I built now) but what about the huge majority living in massive cities? Again, if you are talking about sustainability, you need to take an exploding population into account.

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27-12-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 08:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well, I just watched a couple of his clips.

Putting everything physical aside, I do not believe that all people will ever think the same way and fit in the same mold without the serious conditioning of children he casually refers to. I am not a friend of child conditioning to that extent.
What serious conditioning of children? I'd say he rather refers to a lack of conditioning or different than we do today. We condition children into gender roles and into a presumed intelligence level by what toys we buy them, what do we read them and what programs do we let them watch. It would be interesting to try something different, to try just how smart and versatile children can get when properly taught through their curiosity.
I can't find that particular video, but it was something in that sense... Someone asked Fresco, "will all people be the same?" He said something like, "yes, they will all be the same in a sense that they will all share resources, they will all tolerate diversity, they will all examine new claims through critical thinking..."

(27-12-2012 08:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  I also do not consider social bonding such an important thing, and I would not want it to be the center of my life. If that was the case, I would be out socializing instead of sitting in front of the computer. Not that I have an issue socializing, but I get bored by it quickly.
As I said, this is a grassroots development, from bottom upwards. RBE does not impose anything on anyone, it rather creates conditions that allow people to thrive and does not inherently cause the pathologic behavior. This is how Fresco understands the concept of social engineering. For example, without money there is no lack or excession of money and so there is no money-related crime. Such crime is a problem and such a problem would be solved by RBE. Someone's preference for a company or lack of thereof is just that, a preference, not a problem. There's nothing to solve. It's good you know what you want.
I personally believe we've got a limited capacity for bonding, a tribe-sized capacity, only today we are friends with people over the net instead of those living around. A global human brotherhood would be rather a higher standard of treating all strangers, closer to how we treat co-workers in the same organization or fellow visitors of a like-minded conference.

(27-12-2012 08:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  The pictures of the single homes in the middle of nature are interesting, but with overpopulation the way it is today, how do you figure that is sustainable in the long run? It's not, unless the majority of people opts to live in huge cities and only a few want to live in nature. How are you going to regulate that?
Population is rising, because poor people have many children. Sex is a fun of the poor, plus poor people need many children like a labor force and it's like a woman has 20 children, counting with 14 of them dying. But when a society gets modernized, it changes. People get entirely different ways of spending their time and women get their share of empowerment, instead of hard work of childbearing they start earning money, pursuing hobbies and going to the university. Suddenly people have one, two children, sometimes three, or even no children at all. Despite of a preliminary flare up of population at the beginning (caused by a sudden decline of child mortality) in the long run, the population goes down. This is what's happening in Europe, the population slowly dies out.
This phenomenon is called demographic revolution and it's the only humane and sure way of decreasing the population. No war, no disease, no political imposed rule can decrease population like demographic revolution. And it's all a result of taking care of the people and providing them with self-realization, especially the women. This is something that our western civilization does to a large degree, but RBE is much better at it. It's an ideal environment for demographic revolution.


(27-12-2012 08:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  I have never been a 9 to 5 person, so I can't identify with the desire to stop leading such a life style. I find risk taking stimulating, nothing like taking a risk and waiting for the outcome of what you have done. Beats any computer game any day for me. So I lose my ass sometimes, other times I succeed. It adds spice to life, and I would be bored to death in an existance that offers no motive to take risks.

The proposed society seems to me to be structured so that there are no risks, nothing to lose and nothing to gain. It's more like communism than like the Nazi regime you refer to.

So, I would likely enjoy the creativity of creating an unusual home (I live in an octagon I built now) but what about the huge majority living in massive cities? Again, if you are talking about sustainability, you need to take an exploding population into account.
What kind of risks do you enjoy? You don't seem to me like an extreme sports person or a lottery or hazard games player. Maybe you play on a stock market for a living.
I'd like to know about that, but frankly, that doesn't strike me as a problem. Problem is, when people live from day to day, trying to survive and resist diseases from malnutrition. I'm sure the stock market gamblers can get their thrills elsewhere and find other kind of games than gambling with vital resources that people need to live. Generally, all those who find themselves out of a job, (yet secured), should go study and study themselves, to find out about anything they might be interested in and find a new hobby. It will be obviously much more common process than it is today, freedom of expression will be greater and not limited by short-term financial viability.

As for the massive cities, they don't seem that massive to me. The basic rule is, not to build the houses too inefficiently spread around the landscape so they're diffcult to reach to services like schools and workplaces, but neither build mega-cities with millions of people that absolutely can't sustain themselves with local food, water and energy. The city models of TVP seem to me having about 30,000 - 100,000 people, in my opinion. These cities will be then connected by maglevs and other transportation.
People move into the cities, because they want the services, culture and goods. Half of the world population already lives in cities. If someone doesn't want to, they're welcome to stay in the country, that's not a problem.

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27-12-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 01:31 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What kind of risks do you enjoy?


I enjoy turning crazy ideas into viable businesses, staying way clear of investors because I don't like the interference.

I hardly think any society can make "no strings attached" resources available to anyone who wants to turn crazy ideas into a business, it's just not practical. You need your own resources, and resourcefulness, and that is where the challenge lies.

Besides it sounds like there wouldn't be any business anyway, and no point in creating one, since there is no money.

Then you have the fact that whatever situation people live under, they want to do forbidden things. No matter what the culture, there always have been black markets for this, that and the other. Wanna bet there will be a black market thriving, if not for money then for trades of whatever? What about drugs? Guns? Do you really think people will all of a sudden trust each other and be happy? I don't think so.

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27-12-2012, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 27-12-2012 05:39 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(27-12-2012 01:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  I enjoy turning crazy ideas into viable businesses, staying way clear of investors because I don't like the interference.

I hardly think any society can make "no strings attached" resources available to anyone who wants to turn crazy ideas into a business, it's just not practical. You need your own resources, and resourcefulness, and that is where the challenge lies.

Besides it sounds like there wouldn't be any business anyway, and no point in creating one, since there is no money.
Quite opposite. Today all business and projects must pass through the draconic law of short-term financial return. Long-term investments or non-profit projects are not taken nearly as seriously. Yet as the old wisdom says, the best things in life are not for money. So how do we provide them to people, if money are suddenly not a problem?
I think your occupation would be very useful in the future like RBE. It is a form of creativity, a practical one. I think you could re-orient and re-educate yourself to function within a new system, to work with other methods and goals than money and profit. I'm sure you'd find a way how to be realistic about the resources. One thing a business(wo)man should be good at is customer solution of some "problem". One thing that is going to be a widespread problem/opportunity in RBE is people having too much free time, they'll have to be educated on how to spend it healthily and constructively. They'll likely need to be organized into some projects. Obviously, you don't do all the work yourself. If you can see an opportunity, this time not for profit but let's say an increase in quality of life in a given area, if you're not afraid of crazy ideas, if you can make a project, if you can get people interested in it, I think you'd be happy.


(27-12-2012 01:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  Then you have the fact that whatever situation people live under, they want to do forbidden things. No matter what the culture, there always have been black markets for this, that and the other. Wanna bet there will be a black market thriving, if not for money then for trades of whatever? What about drugs? Guns? Do you really think people will all of a sudden trust each other and be happy? I don't think so.
No, this is another point I always try to drive home. You can't say that, because you don't know that. You have a reference sample of one, one top-down society with money and all problems coming from them. We always had a society where people did not know who they are, where are they coming from and where is the society going. A society built on blind principles by ignorant men, featuring fundamental flaws causing inevitable waste of people. A society driven by an ideology and opinions, not by scientific method and facts. It was always the case, so people lost hope in any meaningful, intelligent arrangement of human society. Despite of the fact, that they expect, demand and pay for the meaningful and intelligent arrangement of things in any and all other areas of their daily life. Everywhere, we want to use things intelligently designed through objective science and not through electrician's opinion and ideology. We have electric and mechanic engineers. Why don't we have social engineers? I mean, why is Jacque Fresco one of a few true, beneficial social engineers in the world? Why aren't there schools of social engineering? Why can not the scientific method be used on a society, on people? Why do you believe people are an exception from the universal law of cause and effect?

You shouldn't assume things or have an opinion. If you don't know, admit it, ask a question and study the answers. If possible, test them. Why do people want drugs? Because their daily life is so painful, dull, empty and meaningless, that they want to escape from it at least for a while. Typically, in the ghettos. Drugs are tickets for a ride out of daily hell into a magical happy land. Give people a fulfilling life and they won't feel the need to dull, sharpen or twist their mind. The worst enemy of joy and human potential is a boring work and education. People commonly drink alcohol after work and kids get Ritalin to stay sedated during education. Of course, they soon get to enjoy the alcohol as well. We can only enjoy our consciousness as much as the society allows us, in the short intervals of brief attention between commercials in TV. The freedom to explore the awareness is provided through simplicity. Drugs are merely artificial, erratic means to do what people should be allowed to do naturally.
As for guns, there are countless responsible gun owners and the reasons of gun abuse are well-known and better addressed by other means than making guns unavailable.

Of course, people are curious. Curiosity is natural and when we're careful, also very beneficial. Never make obstacles to the curiosity, help it forward while getting a control over it. Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest, so we'd best taste it in a safe, supervised way. The society must provide healthy and legal outlets for curiosity. Let's say there's an Anachronist Society, a group of enthusiasts who like to provide the RBE citizens an authentic experience of historical joys and sorrows. Let's say they have several doctors, psychologists and chemists who educate tourists about the historical eras of drug usage and provide free samples to try any time, under best supervision. Those who really like the stuff, should be offered a special course in bio-chemistry and advanced Society membership.
Another section of the Society might be the gun experts. Obviously, hitting things at a distance is fun! Why should it be forbidden? Curiosity must be supported and wisely channeled. Yes, let people handle the guns, see how heavy, smelly and loud they are, show them photos of gunshot wounds, let them get kickback bruises and let them come to a center any time they want and shoot all they want, till they're bored. But don't glorify the guns, don't advertise them, don't show them off in contemporary TV programs, don't present them as any guarantee of safety, don't glorify character traits of their owners, don't under-represent the pain, injury and death they cause and don't make any guns without firmly embedded RFID chips. If necessary, make guns with electronic locks, so they won't trigger outside of designated areas.

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27-12-2012, 06:03 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Opinions and ideology - people will always have them. I think you would have a very hard time convincing people to give them up.

I don't think people function the way you think. People like to rebel, be individualistic, do the forbidden (they'll find something, I am convinced of that). People like to form groups that differ from the mainstream. And people have anger issues regardless of financial status.

You're basing all of this on the assumption that solving financial issues will solve all problems.

It won't. People are hormone driven and hardwired to react in certain ways. That isn't going to go away because they don't have to work to live. Crime will not go away, if they don't need to steal your TV it'll be your wife, or they take objection to something you said and kill you - there will always be people like that.

The majority of women will have that ticking biological clock. Most women find enormous satisfaction in having babies.

People also have kids because they think they will live on in their children. It's a reaction to the fear of death.

I don't think that doing away with work and money will make people be happy little troopers who all get along and don't procreate. They'll be bored little troopers getting into trouble.

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27-12-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Hey, Luminon.

Initially I wanted to write an in-depth response to you, but you look like you're already in it with others, so I'll just fire out some peanut gallery action.

Just to be clear, I'm not an RBE booster by any means. I just support alternatives and I'm well versed in the impediments to them... like this man's ideological position.

I'm with you. The idea that humanity is flawed and irredeemably greedy and blah blah blah, is a salvationist notion that was unfortunately taken up by Les Philosophes of the Enlightenment. It's crap.

Humanity is NOT clockwork. Psychology, anthropology, politics: these are all arts for a reason. The saying I run with is, mechanistic, not deterministic. Meaning there are mechanisms at work inside the human being and behind society, but condition A does not necessarily result in outcome B. In short, we ain't robots. That being said, yeah, if you make conditions better for people, they're likely to respond positively.

Humans don't need to be economically extorted to work, they need to be extorted to produce at surplus levels; ie, make way more than they could ever need and all of it is owned by someone else (what Marx calls expropriating). Humans in egalitarian societies happily work.

Studying people scientifically shouldn't bother him. We've been doing it for decades. They're called the SOCIAL SCIENCES for a reason. Granted, they fall within the realm of the arts (mechanistic, not deterministic), but the social sciences utilise the scientific method as their approach to understanding. It ain't physics, but is certainly is scientific. As a man who probably did a degree in a social science field before hitting law school, he should be reminded of what he already knows.

Again, Marx tells us something important. The kind of wealth that we know is only possible through the exploitation of the worker. Bill Gates didn't make billions of dollars of anything. His millions of employees did. He, through a legal mechanism, simply gets to keep all the gravy for himself. What if someone wants a house made of gold? What is someone wants to be a rapist? There are limits. It's simply that what constitutes a limit is something that shifts. Today, exploitation of workers is fine. Slaves? Most places it's viewed as disgusting. Rape? Near universally it's disgusting. One day, accruing massive wealth through exploitation will live firmly alongside slavery and rape on the verboten list. So too bad, so sad, no gold houses in a non-exploitative alternative.





Preach on, brother Anderson. Preach on.

Daniel Quinn said many profound things. One is that Our culture is great for products, bad for people. Egalitarian societies are great for people, bad for products. If one remains in the mindset that the metric for anything good is the accumulation of products, then egalitarian alternatives remain perpetually unattractive. But the moment that one accepts the reality that the cost for making life good for people is our ability to wantonly produce, as Tyler Durden calls it, shit we don't need (at least not in the volume we're used to right now), is the moment the fear factor lessens.

Scarcity is a reality of existence that Our culture's system obfuscates and shelters us from. Scarcity is normal. Unlimited supply is a total aberration, and not one that can be sustained.

As for totalitarianism, I don't know that much about RBE, but bitch be trippin.

Perfect freedom does not exist. Societal living is only possible through compromise, norms and limitations. This guy just doesn't like a particular set of limitations, the ones that prevent him from having diamond plated yachts and large breasted hookers to sniff coke off of. Thus it's totalitarian, maaaaaaaaan. Foolishness.

As for his problem, I could get real in depth, but I'll fire out this nugget. Our culture sucks for people. Not just poor people. Everyone. We're a bunch of miserable SOBs because that's what our system does to us. Shinny things and heroin let us pretend we've escaped it momentarily. This guy has a whole lot of shinny things. So why would he want to give them up? Kind of a simplistic thing to say on my part, but for some people, stuff is the only life preserver they know exists. So they're leery of giving it up, especially when the ship is sinking.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-12-2012, 03:22 AM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2012 06:17 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
Hey Matt, I'll get to you soon. Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything that you say. And they didn't teach me the all ten fingers typing for nothing Smile
(27-12-2012 06:03 PM)Dom Wrote:  Opinions and ideology - people will always have them. I think you would have a very hard time convincing people to give them up.

I don't think people function the way you think. People like to rebel, be individualistic, do the forbidden (they'll find something, I am convinced of that). People like to form groups that differ from the mainstream. And people have anger issues regardless of financial status.

You're basing all of this on the assumption that solving financial issues will solve all problems.

It won't. People are hormone driven and hardwired to react in certain ways. That isn't going to go away because they don't have to work to live. Crime will not go away, if they don't need to steal your TV it'll be your wife, or they take objection to something you said and kill you - there will always be people like that.

The majority of women will have that ticking biological clock. Most women find enormous satisfaction in having babies.

People also have kids because they think they will live on in their children. It's a reaction to the fear of death.

I don't think that doing away with work and money will make people be happy little troopers who all get along and don't procreate. They'll be bored little troopers getting into trouble.
It seems to me you have a very specific kind of people in mind. Perhaps your life experience is predominantly with them. I distinguish about four basic "levels" of people, together with their preferred values. The lowest layer of people listens most to their biology. More than money they appreciate a full stomach and all things biologic - fight, sex, children, drunkenness... But they're also more than willing to do harder or boring jobs, provided they're paid immediately after. Their entertainment is simple and straightforward fun, nothing expensive or elaborate. Just put together food, alcohol, good music and they'll happy to throw in the women.
The important thing about this type of people, the biologic level is, that they're not the most numerous, they're actually the second. They "evolve" in their consciousness by separation from their tribal-like society and integration into some less personal social order. Typically, a Gypsy de facto renounces his family and their ways, moves away and becomes a Jehovah's Witness and grows to appreciate the strict discipline of the sect. These people integrate into the second type of society, which is not called biologic, but "socially cultural". It has a new set of skills, challenges to be mastered and a new system of values, threats and rewards. This is the standard of humanity today. There are two higher levels, but they're proportionally much fewer in numbers. And every person since birth goes through the four stages of the society and it remains to be seen where he ends up and how fast.

I'd say this is a subject of social sciences. RBE is a method of solving the economic and financial problems through removal of scarcity and bringing abundance. Abundance does not mean infinite goods to infinite needs, but providing as much as we really need, not less, not more. This brings both security and the need to shift away from material values into cultural, intellectual and spiritual values. In these we can do business and be truly rich without wrecking our Earth in the process. There are even associated phenomena of global culture of good will, general atmosphere of sharing and brotherhood. This will make sure that people will not turn into angry, stealing transgression-junkies pathologically afraid of death. This behavior is a feature of the current system, the system of RBE is a different system, so we can and should expect some changes in that.

The problem of drugs, guns and all things forbidden and exciting as you described is called "glamour" (esoteric technical term) and what I described is essentially a de-glamorization, showing things as they are, so people don't glorify them any more than a thing deserves. (typically, a glamour of war heroism and guns) Glamour is an emotional illusion and it's a global problem, as most people are by far emotional. I recognize this problem and I have literature to deal with it, when the need arises. Taking away illusions is of course painful and should not be done for it's own sake, lest the personality is wrecked. Careful work with people's illusions is necessary, to dispel the wrong ones, maintain the ones that lead them in a momentarily good direction and even enchanting people with new, beneficial ones. After all, a culture is a large collective dream.

RBE is not a solution to what you described, which is essentially a cultural problem, a problem of consciousness. But I argue, RBE is by far an ideal environment for cultural progress. It removes the obstacle of poverty and money and leaves people free to manifest their potential - and free for activists like you and me to grasp, support and channel that potential into beneficial forms of the social structure. I argue that this environment makes it possible, unlike our current system. If you recognize the danger of unchanneled human potential that you describe, you can also undertake a responsibility to do something about it. Educate yourself about the social/psychologic causes and be creative within the values of the people you work with, and as a businesswoman you'll be able to get them busy in a right way. You'll be able to create an enterprise for them that will keep them entertained, improve them in terms of discipline/education/awareness, do something useful for the society/environment and introduce them in a positive way to the broader community of people.
Teachers in a kindergarten, company managers and elected Gypsy dukes work pretty much in the same way.

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