Nazi alert and other people's reactions
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02-01-2013, 06:36 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2013 06:51 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions
(02-01-2013 01:06 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Venus project. I dislike it very much. A perfect world to one of us will never be a perfect world to all of us. I someday dream of my isolated cabin in the hills where I can live off the land and see or speak to no one for days or months even. I've got nothing against others signing up for a Venus project if that's their desire but my fear would be that it would end up being some type of Venus 'flytrap' instead. A system that can only be maintained by never letting anyone out of it. A Utopian intention that ends up being a 1984 scenario. Too much like actual history there.
VP is not perfect and does not claim to be, but it is always ever-developing. It is a framework that solves the problems that hold off the constant improvement of technology and society. It removes all obstacles to pan-human cooperation, communication and travel. It deals with all the electricity, food and water bullshit that people like you or me don't have to deal with anyway usually, so we can have fun with study and computers, but the rest of humanity does. That's what I want to get it into your head, it's just a basic needs and resource management system so people would live basically like at a college campus not just if they're white middle class males, but anywhere in the world. It implicitly assumes that we'll take all the internet's worth of existing good ideas and ways of having a good free time and will take them along with us, building upon them. If not, it educates us how to do so. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. It does not say anything about freedom and non-totalitarianism, because that's not the point, it's about making the technology free us from the hut-building and cesspool-emptying crap that most of the undeveloped world has to do. There's no ideology involved, no opinion on anything, no political decision necessary to grow a food on hydroponics, to extrude a house, or recycle everything and design things to be recyclable.
VP here to solve severe existential problems that literally billions of people have. But if you find yourself in RBE and want to have something totally unique, then fine, it's a high-energy, high-tech society, you can draw the damn thing in a computer and have it printed on a nearest 3D printer, computer circuit printer or clothes printer, from a fully recyclable (thus renewable) material.

Technically, what you want is a kind of one-man Venus Project, assuming that at this cabin you'd have the technology to make you sufficient in energy, water and food at least. That's what VP is, using technology to solve problems technologically, not through law or money. Law and money have problems of their own, they crumble under their own weight, while technology builds on each layer of complexity.
There doesn't seem to be a lack of volunteers. Half of world population already lives in huge city agglomerations in much worse conditions, VP is only about making these cities functional, interconnected and self-sufficient. If other people want to live in a cabin - that's fine, fewer problems to solve. Get it into your head, VP is not here to invent problems where are none. No ideologic problems, no financial problems, no life style problems, only problems expressible in terms of technology. Nothing more, nothing less. You seem not to understand what it means to be truly efficient, so you keep inventing problems. If you can specify, what does provoke this reaction in you? How does your suspicion get raised? Is just the idea of a different system, or is it a concern that something you value might not be addressed in the system? If the former, there's probably little I can do about it, if the second, the remedy is a better presentation. Or did I already say something that addressed your concerns?

Lazy people burdened with boring tasks are the motivators of invention, lazy computers are the peak of efficiency. To know when not to intervene is just as important as to know when to intervene. You want to live a unique life style? Yes? Fine, do you need a help with it? No? Fine, who's next? Says a computer. A very lazy (efficient) computer.

(02-01-2013 01:06 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Progress is never linear and will always have it's peaks and pitfalls. The growth of a society is a homeostatic pool of give and take, thriving on competition and experimentation. We'll never know what's best for anything if everything is not being explored and tested constantly.
That's precisely my point! Do you know what was the greatest gift to people's freedom and creativity? Material security plus hi-tech standardized instruments. People are capable of a great creativity and development, when they're secure - that they don't have to work uniformly on the fields and in offices for money and when they're given access to certain kind of standardized instrument. An instrument like Lego blocks, textile printer, 3D printer, game-creating software, AutoCad or Second Life online game, or even a common sale of circuit sheets and standardized resistors, capacitors, inductors, chips and so on, that hobbyists can put together into working machines.
During the Medieval ages the progress was extremely slow, because
- people were busy living off the land (I really don't see what do you like about it)
- they did not have access to the standardized instruments - education - literacy and global language/communication and other gadgets. English and latin alphabet!
Obviously, nothing keeps people more from speaking out than a fear from losing their material security, that's common even in a modern age of today. Today we live in a very standardized, uniform way that is, as it was said, good for products, but not good for the people.

Today we standardize ourselves in order to diversify the products. RBE is about standardizing the products in order to diversify ourselves.

The VP is not a threat to development, social, psychologic or otherwise, it's the best thing that can happen to it. It is about technologizing away the things that don't matter - like who manufactures our products (as if they all weren't made in China on the same machine under different brands) and giving us great freedom and instruments to develop in ways that do matter.

(02-01-2013 01:06 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Besides, what about the human nature of rebellion? Of hacking? Or what about my ability or need to do things differently just because I can?
In all these phenomena we must assume they have causes. Then we must research these causes through science and find solutions. One solution of rebellion is to make the very mainstream society an embodiment of rebellion. Find out what the rebellious people want and give it to them in a sophisticated way. Nobody ever rebels just for rebellion itself, they probably want something. And chances are, giving it to them (perhaps in some reasonable terms in exchange for some social duties, if necessary) is the best solution. It's probably not a good example, but my people were "rebellious" during the Communist era, they craved the Eastern spiritual stuff, smuggled English yogi books and so on. After the revolution they stopped rebelling and are happy to do what they wanted in the first place - to sing sanskrit mantras and listen to them on the net and wear tie-dyed shirts and scarves. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

(02-01-2013 01:06 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  I do however, think technology is leading the evolution of human citizenry to a more open source method and that's where I agree with you. Though it's more likely to happen gradually and on it's own instead of by some master plan. A guy name Clay Shirky a good feel on the pulse of this stuff in his books and TED talks.
Well, it can technically happen in some intermediate stages, but
- there are political forces against it (copyright lobby, conservatives etc)
- financial forces (banker lobby with currency value based on oil)
- and time is against us too.
But of course, this development can not be forced. You seem to want everything that the VP is, only in a slower, gradual way.
I'll look at the presentations, but it seems to me exactly the kind of thing that people would incorporate into RBE at the very first opportunity and that RBE is built to be a platform for.
RBE is the plumbing, housing, farming, processing, distributing and recycling methodology that basically does away with the first three sectors of economy, unless you really want to do some coal-mining as a hobby, in which case you're welcome. There's no real reason why to wait with it, we already have the technology and resources and any development such as Mr Shirky demonstrates would go much faster and global in there. Build the RBE globally in 10 years of full effort and then be as gradual as you like, even pass laws digitally through community effort, if you really want to, though maybe by then it's easier to make a simple technology/software gimmick that solves the social problem without a law.

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RE: Nazi alert and other people's reactions - Luminon - 02-01-2013 06:36 PM
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