Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
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07-03-2016, 07:41 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
Szuchow/Dresse23

You both claim that the German people did know, or at least more German people knew than were prepared to admit, what was happening to the Jewish people.

I wasn't aware.

Would either of you care to square the circle?

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07-03-2016, 07:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2016 07:55 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 07:20 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I've spent quite some time in Germany on and off over the years. I've also lived on the borders of Germany. Based upon my informal chats, it did seem that a lot of Germans really didn't know what was happening with the Jews.

That's the problem. Basing on informal chats and people memory I would be forced to say that People Republic of Poland was great, Poles didn't murder any Jew, antisemitism is unheard of in Poland. When we looks at the facts however things look different.

(07-03-2016 07:20 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Don't forget, none of the death camps were located in Germany.

Depends how you define Germany. Auschwitz concentration camp for example: was a network of German Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps built and operated by the Third Reich in Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany during World War II.

(07-03-2016 07:20 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  That was an indication of how little Hitler wanted the German people to know about his work.


Hitler not wanting people to know does not equal them not knowing. Some 1.4 million of Jews were shot [Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews]. Such crime could not be entirely hidden and ones who saw it could easily write the letters home.

Also I recommend Kershaw Hitler, The Germans and The Final Solution and Fritzsche Life and Death in the Third Reich.

(07-03-2016 07:41 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Szuchow/Dresse23

You both claim that the German people did know, or at least more German people knew than were prepared to admit, what was happening to the Jewish people.

I wasn't aware.

Would either of you care to square the circle?

According to Kershaw rumors about fate of Jews were more than common and sometimes they were surprisingly accurate in regard to what was happening in the east. In 1941 Hitler mentioned that people talks about eterminating of the Jews; in 1942 Martin Bormann felt need to belie rumors about harsh means used against Jew in the east.[Ian Kershaw, Hitler, The Germans and The Final Solution, s. 190 of polish edition]

According to SD reports people were aware that mass extermination is taking place. Rumor said even about nervous breakdowns of Einsatzgruppen units which isn't far from the truth.[Ian Kershaw, op.cit., s. 191].

There is also book recommended by Kershaw - The Terrible Secret by Walter Laquer. I haven't read it though.

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07-03-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
Szuchow

I feel that I need to protest at this point. I feel hijacked.No

I'm not angry nor upset but this isn't cricket as far as I'm concerned.

The history of this sad event is well documented. More books have probably been written about this subject than any other single event in history. This is the way it should be. That's not fact - it's just an impression since I haven't done a count of the historical literature.

This is what you said you wanted. Yet, you quote book after book and author after author.

You didn't want fact. That's in the history books - you wanted impressions. I have given you my impressions. To quote historical literature isn't cricket.

Sir, you are now offside.

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07-03-2016, 08:07 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2016 08:17 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I'm not angry nor upset but this isn't cricket as far as I'm concerned.

It isn't.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  The history of this sad event is well documented. More books have probably been written about this subject than any other single event in history. This is the way it should be. That's not fact - it's just an impression since I haven't done a count of the historical literature.

Last info I saw claimed that it is more than 30k of books about this topic.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  This is what you said you wanted. Yet, you quote book after book and author after author.

I wanted opinion of the others and if said opinions would be backed by literature then it's even better.

I quote them to back my claims. I could say that Germans didn't know, but I see no reason for saying something that I deem false.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  You didn't want fact.

I didn't want another book, just people impressions. But never I said that I will agree with everyone nor that I won't dispute others claims.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  That's in the history books - you wanted impressions. I have given you my impressions. To quote historical literature isn't cricket.

To quote historical literature is to show from where my claims come from.

You give your impressions. That's well and good, and I actually agree with you on several points. But what I should do in regard to you saying that Germans didn't knew? Not answer at all? Assert that you're wrong without telling why? Say that I think you're wrong and not support it with literature?

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Sir, you are now offside.

I highly doubt it.


The thing is that I am historian and I don't really like to claim something without proof. It's unprofessional and I try to avoid it. But it does not mean that you can't write what you feel it's true without using the literature. You can, but there is nothing preventing me from disagreeing and if I disagree then I tell you why and where possible back it with books.

I wrote that I wanted opinions not that citing the books is forbidden.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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07-03-2016, 08:29 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
Szuchow

I did not refer to literature. I gave you my impressions gained from my discussions with Germans, Jews, Poles and Czechs etc. They were not fact - by definition.

For your part, rather than to refer to literature that you are more than familiar with and to which I gently nod, you could have discussed why it might be possible that Germans really didn't know or if they did generally know, chose not to act or to speak out against - without reference to literature.

I think this approach would have yielded a more fruitful and interesting discussion.

Just like you, I didn't want to know what the literature says. Had I wanted that, I too would have read a book. I wanted to know what you thought and why you raised the topic in the first place.

You have now been sent off the field for (falsely) arguing.

I am not discussing this topic any longer and this will be my last post on the topic.

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07-03-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 06:43 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Excellent post by god (has no twitter account.

Imho a lot of germans kew what was going on with the jews, and or/many looked away. Looking away doesnt make you innocent!
I never bought this "we didnt know anything" wholesale. Applies for some, but certainly not for a lot. There was too much happening and it was too obvious.
Im saying this being german myself!

Not to apologize for any form of fascism, especially the Nazis, but I'd back off on that conviction of your people for looking away. I think this comes down to a "well, what can I really do about it?" prioritization. I say this as someone who has seen the inside of the US "Justice" System for nine years... even though some, maybe most, Americans are aware that the USA incarcerates at 7.5 times the world average, has more prisoners total and per capita than any other nation, has been condemned by Human Rights Watch for our treatment of prisoners (look up how many deaths under suspicious circumstances we have... it's so many we literally don't even know the total), and that private businesses have for decades been pushing old racist agenda sentencing laws into money-makers for the Prison Industrial Complex, a billions-a-year industry... what are they going to do about it?

This is heavily complicated by the propaganda that tells people They Are Animals™, They Are Coming For Your Children™, and This Will Make A Better Society For The Good People™, which forces people to choose between their empathy and their ideas about self-preservation. The government promises them that it will put the Bad People "Away"... and do you really care where your garbage goes, once it's off your curb, so to speak?

Add to this mixture a fascist ideologue who tells them that the road to "Making America Germany Great Again" is to get rid of all these people, and you have a toxic brew that can lead to these sorts of national disasters.

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07-03-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 08:29 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I did not refer to literature. I gave you my impressions gained from my discussions with Germans, Jews, Poles and Czechs etc. They were not fact - by definition.

It's painfully clear that your impression aren't the facts. It's also obvious why Germans saying that they didn't know is somewhat suspicious - it's easier on the conscience.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  For your part, rather than to refer to literature that you are more than familiar with and to which I gently nod, you could have discussed why it might be that Germans chose to ignore or if they did generally know, chose not to act or to speak out against - without reference to literature.

I might but I try to back up what I say with sources. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or in inelegant way but feels only discussion isn't something that interest me.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I think this approach would have yielded a more fruitful and interesting discussion.

I doubt it. It

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Just like you, I didn't want to know what the literature says. Had I wanted that, I too would have read a book. I wanted to know what you thought and why you raised the topic in the first place.

I wrote what I thought in my response to you and provided the links which are showing how my train of though look like. If you felt that was unclear you could simply asked what was my opinion.

And while I don't want a book it does not mean that I don't want literature backed opinions. Sure, knowing what others think is interesting but that does not mean that books are of the table in this thread. Especially when one consider that our knowledge of events is shaped mainly - or I think so - by them.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  You have now been sent off the field for (falsely) arguing.

You sent yourself from the field for strange issues with citing sources.

(07-03-2016 07:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I am not discussing this topic any longer and this will be my last post on the topic.

Your choice. Sorry that I countered your feels with facts.

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07-03-2016, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2016 09:32 AM by Dom.)
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
My mom was a young girl when Hitler was in power. She lived in the country side in southern Germany.

The way she told the story, they knew something was up with killing people, but not that it was all about Jews (which it actually wasn't, many, many others were killed too.)

They knew something was up because at school they had to write essays about "What we talked about at dinner last night". And -poof- some of the farmers and their families disappeared. Were taken at night.

People lived in fear. They didn't know who would be next. They heard of hospitals slowly getting empty - no one would go there anymore because people disappeared. It was all about people disappearing without a trace.

Gramps and his 11 daughters spent a lot of time digging a basement under the house, a bunker to hide in if the troops came to get them. It came in handy when everything was bombed....

These were simple German people, not Jews or handicapped or anything, just German farmers. It was the era of fear for most of the people.

Even as I grew up a decade after the war ended, no one would speak about politics. Better that no one knew your thoughts, you never knew what could happen. My parents carried this fear into their graves, despite living through trouble free decades afterwards. It was also likely a big factor in their decision to keep their atheism under wraps - even from us children. I only found out they were atheist when they were on their death beds.

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07-03-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  My mom was a young girl when Hitler was in power. She lived in the country side in southern Germany.

The way she told the story, they knew something was up with killing people, but not that it was all about Jews (which it actually wasn't, many, many others were killed too.)

Knowing that something was up is not surprising. T4 aktion comes to mind; regime could not hide it from public.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  They knew something was up because at school they had to write essays about "What we talked about at dinner last night". And -poof- some of the farmers and their families disappeared. Were taken at night.

Using children to spy on parents? Same practice as in USSR, though terror there was far more extensive. Though I suppose number unearthed by historians and perception of people living back then are two different things.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  People lived in fear. They didn't know who would be next. They heard of hospitals slowly getting empty - no one would go there anymore because people disappeared. It was all about people disappearing without a trace.

From what I understand not everyone lived in fear or maybe fear was mixed with enthusiasm.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  These were simple German people, not Jews or handicapped or anything, just German farmers. It was the era of fear for most of the people.

Memories can paint picture different than literature, though terror existing in Reich is beyond questioning. Interestingly however much of it was supposed to be result of citizens informing Gestapo on their own volition.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  Even as I grew up a decade after the was ended, no one would speak about politics. Better that no one knew your thoughts, you never knew what could happen. My parents carried this fear into their graves, despite living through trouble free decades afterwards.

Considering what they lived through it was sensible approach.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-03-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 09:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  My mom was a young girl when Hitler was in power. She lived in the country side in southern Germany.

The way she told the story, they knew something was up with killing people, but not that it was all about Jews (which it actually wasn't, many, many others were killed too.)

Knowing that something was up is not surprising. T4 aktion comes to mind; regime could not hide it from public.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  They knew something was up because at school they had to write essays about "What we talked about at dinner last night". And -poof- some of the farmers and their families disappeared. Were taken at night.

Using children to spy on parents? Same practice as in USSR, though terror there was far more extensive. Though I suppose number unearthed by historians and perception of people living back then are two different things.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  People lived in fear. They didn't know who would be next. They heard of hospitals slowly getting empty - no one would go there anymore because people disappeared. It was all about people disappearing without a trace.

From what I understand not everyone lived in fear or maybe fear was mixed with enthusiasm.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  These were simple German people, not Jews or handicapped or anything, just German farmers. It was the era of fear for most of the people.

Memories can paint picture different than literature, though terror existing in Reich is beyond questioning. Interestingly however much of it was supposed to be result of citizens informing Gestapo on their own volition.

(07-03-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  Even as I grew up a decade after the was ended, no one would speak about politics. Better that no one knew your thoughts, you never knew what could happen. My parents carried this fear into their graves, despite living through trouble free decades afterwards.

Considering what they lived through it was sensible approach.

Keep in mind, these were SIMPLE people, not well educated, not well read, nor up on what was published as news then. Their lives revolved around potatoes (their livelihood), some live stock, and the other 20 or so families in the village, who were all equally uneducated. My father's side of the family, in the northern part of Germany, had different experiences altogether. They were highly educated and witnessed forced laborers marching past their house every day.

Also keep in mind that information did not travel then like it does now.

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