Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
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07-03-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Keep in mind, these were SIMPLE people, not well educated, not well read, nor up on what was published as news then. Their lives revolved around potatoes (their livelihood), some live stock, and the other 20 or so families in the village, who were all equally uneducated. My father's side of the family, in the northern part of Germany, had different experiences altogether. They were highly educated and witnessed forced laborers marching past their house every day.

I'm not sure if I understand you. Though If you try to say that degree of knowledge about regime crimes varied back then I agree.

(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Also keep in mind that information did not travel then like it does now.

I know. Rumors though have a way of finding willing ear.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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07-03-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 10:00 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Keep in mind, these were SIMPLE people, not well educated, not well read, nor up on what was published as news then. Their lives revolved around potatoes (their livelihood), some live stock, and the other 20 or so families in the village, who were all equally uneducated. My father's side of the family, in the northern part of Germany, had different experiences altogether. They were highly educated and witnessed forced laborers marching past their house every day.

I'm not sure if I understand you. Though If you try to say that degree of knowledge about regime crimes varied back then I agree.

(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Also keep in mind that information did not travel then like it does now.

I know. Rumors though have a way of finding willing ear.

Yep, I am saying specifically that what you knew depended on education and location.

Rumors thrived in my mom's setting, but they were mostly about what happened to people who disappeared from hospitals and those taken from their homes. What mostly was believed in her village is that they were all shot because they were considered traitors. Not much in the way of wagging tongues going on when you cannot trust anyone...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-03-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 10:11 AM)Dom Wrote:  Yep, I am saying specifically that what you knew depended on education and location.


I would add circumstances to the mix.

(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Rumors thrived in my mom's setting, but they were mostly about what happened to people who disappeared from hospitals and those taken from their homes. What mostly was believed in her village is that they were all shot because they were considered traitors. Not much in the way of wagging tongues going on when you cannot trust anyone...

Rumors thrive in nearly all circumstances I would say.

There must have been some waging tongues if people were aware of nervous issues among Einsatrzgruppen troops.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-03-2016, 10:31 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 10:18 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(07-03-2016 10:11 AM)Dom Wrote:  Yep, I am saying specifically that what you knew depended on education and location.


I would add circumstances to the mix.

(07-03-2016 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  Rumors thrived in my mom's setting, but they were mostly about what happened to people who disappeared from hospitals and those taken from their homes. What mostly was believed in her village is that they were all shot because they were considered traitors. Not much in the way of wagging tongues going on when you cannot trust anyone...

Rumors thrive in nearly all circumstances I would say.

There must have been some waging tongues if people were aware of nervous issues among Einsatrzgruppen troops.

There was no troop presence in mom's village. And - people would have never said anything critical of the regime to anyone. It wasn't safe. You didn't know who to trust.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-03-2016, 10:37 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 10:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  There was no troop presence in mom's village.

I'm not saying that there was. Comment about Einsatzgruppen was meant to show that there were waging tongues in the country and that said waging tongues had a pretty god info.

(07-03-2016 10:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  And - people would have never said anything critical of the regime to anyone. It wasn't safe. You didn't know who to trust.

It's possible.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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07-03-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 07:20 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Based upon my informal chats, it did seem that a lot of Germans really didn't know what was happening with the Jews. Don't forget, none of the death camps were located in Germany. That was an indication of how little Hitler wanted the German people to know about his work.

Well the major and well known death camps werent in germany, but we nevertheless had a few.

I personally visited Buchenwald, which is on top of a hill just outside of Weimar (if i recall correctly) near Leipzig. It was the very first KZ put up by the ever so corrupt Hermann G. in the mid to late 30s.
Inmates: 250.000 (total, over the course of the years)
Estimated death toll: 56.000
One cant tell me that the population of those locations nearby, with clear view uphill, didnt notice at all what was going on there. Those 250000 people somehow had to get there. "Scotty beam me up" wasnt as option.
How do you get rid of 56000 corpses? As far as i know they didnt have the option to cremate them all (it wasnt intended as a death camp, so only a small crematorium as far as i remember).
As far as i know those locations were acessible to everyone who wanted to see/know.
The letters at the gate of Buchenwald read "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique, everyone as he deserves). Thats a very clear and open message for everyone to read.....who dares, dont you think?

Second KZ i visited was Flossenbürg (Canaris and many other celebrities were imprisoned there). Location is near Floß at the Czech-bavarian border, bavarian side. It was intended for "labour until death".
Estimated death toll: 30.000
Scary place in a small valley, in the middle of nowhere. Like helms deep. Really scary.

Lets not forget Euthanasia.
Estimated death toll: 100.000 people.
Location: at least until 1940 (where lots of the killing was outsourced into death camps) in various institutions all across germany.

Forced sterilisation: A total of 1% of the total of the german population was forcibly sterilized (ok, not killed, still unspeakable).

Back to "did they know".

You are right, we have 80 milllon germans, and most werent personally involved or lived nearby (to see). Yet like with any other conspiracy the saying "if more than two people are involved, you cant keep it secret" has applied, im am quite confident.
Just think of all the personnel involved in euthanasia, and their relatives, and friends, etc.

Labour until death: There was quite an infrastructure around these camps, dont you think? So a lot of people must have been involved more or less, even from the outside. And they maybe talk to someone (ok, watch for the gestapo, bu tits so horrible, you need to talk to someone at some point, dontcha?)

To sum it up. Of course not all or a major part of the german population knew of this, but a lot of them just couldnt avoid to be involved. Plus the peiple who indirectly were involved, plus the ones who were talked to, and finally those who looked away and now deny they knew.......they did know, else why look the other way?

I am not even talking about gestapo rallying up your neighbours every night.
And....a certian significant part of society being "surgically removed"...were talking abou tmore than just a few people here and there....where did everybody think those people went? All emigrated to the US or what? No, they didnt want to know for a good part, but we will never know how many.
But as Szuchow said: 1mio more or less, doesnt make it a lesser crime.

Quote:As for the science of Germany suffering because of its 'Aryanation', I'm not sure that's true either. The fact that damn fine Jewish scientists were excluded may have caused the 'Aryran' scientists to excel beyond their presupposed abilities.
.......
Would German scientists have got any further with the help of Jewish scientists? It's impossible to say but, I don't think that one can automatically claim that they would.

Would the Germans have developed nuclear weapons with Jewish help?

Probably not given how much effort was involved in the Manhattan Project

I was talking less about the persons removed from the pool of scientists, but rahter about the corruption of the scientific method, which can only lead to lesser results.
Of course you still have departments that still run well, and where professionals like von Braun dont let themselves get influenced by this shit.
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07-03-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 11:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Well the major and well known death camps werent in germany, but we nevertheless had a few.

I personally visited Buchenwald, which is on top of a hill just outside of Weimar (if i recall correctly) near Leipzig. It was the very first KZ put up by the ever so corrupt Hermann G. in the mid to late 30s.
Inmates: 250.000 (total, over the course of the years)
Estimated death toll: 56.000
One cant tell me that the population of those locations nearby, with clear view uphill, didnt notice at all what was going on there. Those 250000 people somehow had to get there. "Scotty beam me up" wasnt as option.
How do you get rid of 56000 corpses? As far as i know they didnt have the option to cremate them all (it wasnt intended as a death camp, so only a small crematorium as far as i remember).
As far as i know those locations were acessible to everyone who wanted to see/know.
The letters at the gate of Buchenwald read "Jedem das Seine" (suum cuique, everyone as he deserves). Thats a very clear and open message for everyone to read.....who dares, dont you think?

Second KZ i visited was Flossenbürg (Canaris and many other celebrities were imprisoned there). Location is near Floß at the Czech-bavarian border, bavarian side. It was intended for "labour until death".
Estimated death toll: 30.000
Scary place in a small valley, in the middle of nowhere. Like helms deep. Really scary.

To be fair neither Buchenwald nor Flossenbürg were death camps. If this list is correct no extermination camp was in prewar German lands.

(07-03-2016 11:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Lets not forget Euthanasia.
Estimated death toll: 100.000 people.
Location: at least until 1940 (where lots of the killing was outsourced into death camps) in various institutions all across germany.

Thanks to cardinal von Galen speech T4 aktion is perhaps hardest to deny knowledge of.

(07-03-2016 11:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  You are right, we have 80 milllon germans, and most werent personally involved or lived nearby (to see). Yet like with any other conspiracy the saying "if more than two people are involved, you cant keep it secret" has applied, im am quite confident.
Just think of all the personnel involved in euthanasia, and their relatives, and friends, etc.

Exactly. If Bormann took the steps to quel the rumors about "harsh treatment of Jews" at least some part of populace must knew what is happening.

(07-03-2016 11:16 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  To sum it up. Of course not all or a major part of the german population knew of this, but a lot of them just couldnt avoid to be involved. Plus the peiple who indirectly were involved, plus the ones who were talked to, and finally those who looked away and now deny they knew.......they did know, else why look the other way?

Interesting take on the subject can be found in Stephen Marks Why Did They Follow Hitler?. When Jews were dehumanized their disappearance was not really noted; lack of empathy made their deportation invisible. When they disappeared people stopped thinking about them. In some cases they were even blamed for escaping Germany - allegedly to USA, leaving others to suffer [Marks, op. cit., chapter 3, Defense from shame, sub chapter Disappearance of Jews]*.

*It's EPUB. I can't see page numbers.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-03-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
Buchenwald et al, werent death camps in the classic sense of "get them there and kill them now", but they were camps for "death by labour" (contrary to "labour until death"). So they were death camps, just not intended to have such a high throughput as Auschwitz.

56000 killed in Buchenwald was no "side effect".

Didnt the vatican, or lets say catholic church officially protest the treatment of the jews? How can anyone claim "we didnt know at all"?
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07-03-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 12:44 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Exactly. If Bormann took the steps to quel the rumors about "harsh treatment of Jews" at least some part of populace must knew what is happening.

I am sure in the cities they knew much more than in the country. Even though most people were removed at night, there must be neighbors and witnesses. Too many eyes in the cities to keep things secret.

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07-03-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: Nazism - primacy of ideology or thirst for power in disguise?
(07-03-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Buchenwald et al, werent death camps in the classic sense of "get them there and kill them now",

Exactly. I try to stick to nomenclature that is already used.

(07-03-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  but they were camps for "death by labour" (contrary to "labour until death"). So they were death camps, just not intended to have such a high throughput as Auschwitz.

They weren't extermination camps. Again, I'm sticking to nomenclature that's already in use.

There is however no denying of how murderous even KL were - from about 1.6 million imprisoned people 1.1 died [Philippe Burrin, Fascisme, nazisme, autoritarisme, s. 100].

(07-03-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  56000 killed in Buchenwald was no "side effect".

I'm not saying it was but distinction between Konzentrationslager and Vernichtungslager exists.

(07-03-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Didnt the vatican, or lets say catholic church officially protest the treatment of the jews?

Depend how you look at it - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_..._Holocaust

(07-03-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  How can anyone claim "we didnt know at all"?

How? Easily enough as it is more convenient than saying I knew but I done nothing.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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