Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
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06-02-2017, 08:11 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2017 08:21 AM by Vera.)
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
Well, our ex-idiot, sorry, PM, was a fireman, so how does that percentage work in his case? Consider Big Grin

All I'm saying is, it's not as simple as us vs. them and there's a lot of things wrong at least in my part of the world (which is rather similar to yours, I'm guessing, only, we're at least less religious and might have been fucked by Russia slightly less then you have, though I'm not sure if I'll give you even that Rolleyes ) that is *our*, the people's fault. And yeah, as a rule, it's the lowest of the low that are drown to politics... but, at least over here, people tend to elect the lowest of the lowest of the low. Or rather, they seem to share a rather trendy attitude - to hell with experts, I wanna someone who says it like it is and who talks the way me and mah mates talk in the pub. Well, we've been electing such a creature for a while now... and the results have been abysmal.

Blaming the imaginary "them" up there isn't helping "us", is all I'm saying (also, nearly five decades of communism have definitely led way too many people to see the state as something you steal from... leaving them completely oblivious to the fact that today, it only means stealing from yourself).

We need a change in attitudes, before we can hope for a change in government.

Just my five grosz*

[Image: plato-politics-quotes-one-of-the-penalti...ing-to.jpg]

* Ha, I didn't know that's what your coin is called. It's an old word for money in my language. And, apparently, it, too, comes from Latin. There, I just learnt something new Rolleyes

ETA: Heath Tierney, you're right and that's exactly why I'm saying it's not as simple as us, the ruled, vs. them, the rulers. Not anymore, anyway. And *that* is why we need a change in attitudes... and, frankly, a healthy does of societal evolving. This would fix so many things but it's a painfully slow process, apparently Sad

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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06-02-2017, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2017 08:44 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
(06-02-2017 08:11 AM)Vera Wrote:  All I'm saying is, it's not as simple as us vs. them and there's a lot of things wrong at least in my part of the world (which is rather similar to yours, I'm guessing, only, we're at least less religious and might have been fucked by Russia slightly less then you have, though I'm not sure if I'll give you even that Rolleyes )that is *our*, the people's fault

It is not simple but sadly it is us vs. them at least from my pov. And cause it's us vs. them it can't be simple - no change can be made if ability to make change makes you one of them. Or maybe change can be made but on glacially slow pace.

It is partly people fault but politicians are far from blameless in this - being chosen to do the job doesn't give one licence to fuck everything up and then cry about bad opposition which made making good on the promises impossible. Child disease of young democracy I guess. Young,inexperienced and thinking that being in power make you ruler not servant.

As for being fucked by Russia - I guess that what hurt the most truest of true Polish patriots is fact that Poland was saved by USSR. No self respecting nationalist clown can stand such.

Quote:. And yeah, as a rule, it's the lowest of the low that are drown to politics... but, at least over here, people tend to elect the lowest of the lowest of the low. Or rather, they seem to share a rather trendy attitude - to hell with experts, I wanna someone who says like it is and who talks the way me and mah mates talk in the pub. Well, we've been electing such a creature for a while now... and the results have been abysmal.

Here it is the same, mostly. It's not brightest who are voted into offices but rather populist. There is also issue of almost non existing left, though left has only itself to blame - when you alienate your support base what else can you expect.

Quote:Blaming the imaginary "them" up there isn't helping "us", is all I'm saying (also, nearly five decades of communism have definitely led way too many people to see the state as something you steal from... leaving them completely oblivious to the fact that today, it only means stealing from yourself).

Them aren't imaginary - politicians are interested in power not well being of fellow citizen. Apart from earlier mentioned Bieńkowska there was Nowina Konopka who think that accidental (random) people had no right to decide, or to make it understandable in English - what people thinks counts to shit when politicians make laws. Politicians with their privileges are different caste or maybe it is more accurate to say that they deem themselves a different caste; I imagine Polish politicians thinking that saying Let them eat cake was perfectly legitimate solution to French troubles.

Quote:We need a change in attitudes, before we can hope for a change in government.

There will be no change in attitude towards gov it it won't change how it act. And there isn't much hope of it happening or at least of it happening in near future.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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06-02-2017, 09:09 AM
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
I have never and will never claim that politicians are blameless or anything like that. All I mean is that they come from the ranks of us, the people, which is why I think we need to change our attitudes first. Or simultaneously.

I don’t know. It’s not a simple problem and its solution is even more complicated. All I know is, in my country at least, the vast majority of people bitching about those bastards up there are mainly bitching because it’s not them who’s up there and, given the chance, will behave exactly the same if not worse.

Or maybe I’m reaching new levels of cynicism that are making even me dizzy*

But we might have to dust off the guillotines soon, methinks Wink

As for the USSR (or Russia) saving anyone – it’s not like they “liberated” Europe out of the goodness of their hearts (and it’s not like they weren’t handsomely paid off with us and half of Europe), just like дедушка Иван, as we were supposed to lovingly call them, didn’t “liberate” us from the Ottoman empire for the good of all Slavdom (more like – Slavedom Dodgy ). Self-interest and dominion is the name of the game and always has been, when it comes to the so-called “Great” Powers.

And being on a crossroads between continents, it’s not like Russians were the only ones saving us (till it hurt and them some Dodgy ), the British have been more than “generous” either… which is why (while I do not believe in countries per se and see them as a (still) necessary evil of sorts, and have no “pride” in or a particular sense of belonging to the patch of dirt I happen to have been born on, through no choice of mine) it still infuriates me when I hear Brits moaning about how my entire country, together with Romanians, en masse, are gonna invade their precious isles and steal their jobs (all the while living on the dole, of course). I’ve heard it from people on this very forum, even. Yeah, I speak several languages, have lived on three continents but I am definitely gonna come and steal your crummy job. Get over yourself, jerk!


* On it, Girly Wink


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06-02-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
(06-02-2017 09:09 AM)Vera Wrote:  I have never and will never claim that politicians are blameless or anything like that. All I mean is that they come from the ranks of us, the people, which is why I think we need to change our attitudes first. Or simultaneously.

There is no changing attitude if it is the same shit after each elections.

Quote:I don’t know. It’s not a simple problem and its solution is even more complicated. All I know is, in my country at least, the vast majority of people bitching about those bastards up there are mainly bitching because it’s not them who’s up there and, given the chance, will behave exactly the same if not worse.

Or maybe I’m reaching new levels of cynicism that are making even me dizzy*

Serious problem don't have easy solutions.

I wouldn't be surprised if many people who bitch about politics would do the same. Honestly I can't be sure that I wouldn't do the same - being incorruptible is easy when there are no bribes being offered.

Quote:As for the USSR (or Russia) saving anyone – it’s not like they “liberated” Europe out of the goodness of their hearts (and it’s not like they weren’t handsomely paid off with us and half of Europe), just like дедушка Иван, as we were supposed to lovingly call them, didn’t “liberate” us from the Ottoman empire for the good of all Slavdom (more like – Slavedom Dodgy ). Self-interest and dominion is the name of the game and always has been, when it comes to the so-called “Great” Powers.

I didn't say that USSR saved Poland (or Europe) from goodness of it's heart, but it still did and this I guess it's part of the reason for which some hate it. Other and more sensible reason being forced "friendship".

As for self-interest - it it doesn't cross into war one can hardly blame countries for working with this in mind. If one does not look for one interests no one else will.

Quote:And being on a crossroads between continents, it’s not like Russians were the only ones saving us (till it hurt and them some Dodgy ), the British have been more than “generous” either… which is why (while I do not believe in countries per se and see them as a (still) necessary evil of sorts, and have no “pride” in or a particular sense of belonging to the patch of dirt I happen to have been born on, through no choice of mine) it still infuriates me when I hear Brits moaning about how my entire country, together with Romanians, en masse, are gonna invade their precious isles and steal their jobs (all the while living on the dole, of course). I’ve heard it from people on this very forum, even. Yeah, I speak several languages, have lived on three continents but I am definitely gonna come and steal your crummy job. Get over yourself, jerk!

I spoke about USSR only in context of Poland.

I do not mind countries but nationalism is something that clowns and failures take refugee in I think - when one have no achievements then deeds of people from time past remain as compensation for one own inadequacy.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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06-02-2017, 10:05 AM
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
(06-02-2017 09:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I do not mind countries but nationalism is something that clowns and failures take refugee in I think - when one have no achievements then deeds of people from time past remain as compensation for one own inadequacy.

Yeah, but the self-interest of the “Great” Powers seldom stops at protecting themselves and looking after themselves and pretty much always boils down to “let’s see whose is bigger” on a global scale.

The funny thing is, I often see Americans say that something is “unamerican”… as if American is this magic attribute that all the most wonderful things in the world possess. Pretty much the same thing Xtians do when *they* claim that something is unchristian… as if Xtian is such a flattering word.

And you’re absolutely right – taking pride in the group you choose to identify with, be it a country, a religion or a freaking football team, is a substitute for personal achievement (or at least, that’s part of it, it’s more complicated than that). It pains me somewhat to quote Schopenhauer and I wouldn’t have put it quite as harshly, but: “Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

Einstein got it perfectly right: “Nationalism [and patriotism is a nicer-sounding name of the same thing] is an infantile disease, the measle of mankind.” All we need now is to finally outgrow it... hopefully, having gained immunity in the process.

And these are just hilarious “Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen.” and “Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.” Laugh out load

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06-02-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Near-record protests break out in Romania on month after government takes office
(06-02-2017 10:05 AM)Vera Wrote:  Yeah, but the self-interest of the “Great” Powers seldom stops at protecting themselves and looking after themselves and pretty much always boils down to “let’s see whose is bigger” on a global scale.

At least things are kinda more civilized now.

Quote:The funny thing is, I often see Americans say that something is “unamerican”… as if American is this magic attribute that all the most wonderful things in the world possess. Pretty much the same thing Xtians do when *they* claim that something is unchristian… as if Xtian is such a flattering word.

Agreed. Though "unamerican" thing is more about Americans than rest of the world I think; it's tribalistic denouncement, just like same thing in Poland when those living in the past call fellow citizens, well unpolish I guess. Unchristian seems to me as more universal than tribal condemnation.

Quote:And you’re absolutely right – taking pride in the group you choose to identify with, be it a country, a religion or a freaking football team, is a substitute for personal achievement (or at least, that’s part of it, it’s more complicated than that). It pains me somewhat to quote Schopenhauer and I wouldn’t have put it quite as harshly, but: “Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

Einstein got it perfectly right: “Nationalism [and patriotism is a nicer-sounding name of the same thing] is an infantile disease, the measle of mankind.” All we need now is to finally outgrow it... hopefully, having gained immunity in the process.

And these are just hilarious “Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen.” and “Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.” Laugh out load

I choose Shopenhauer and add Arundhati Roy:

[Image: cee3e89a130fa6fe7eaf1fc2ce728e35.png]

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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