Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-06-2013, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 03:34 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
Information Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
I found this article online about Snowden:

EDWARD SNOWDEN IS NO HERO

And I am curious about this thing:

Quote:The American government, and its democracy, are flawed institutions. But our system offers legal options to disgruntled government employees and contractors. They can take advantage of federal whistle-blower laws; they can bring their complaints to Congress; they can try to protest within the institutions where they work. But Snowden did none of this. Instead, in an act that speaks more to his ego than his conscience, he threw the secrets he knew up in the air—and trusted, somehow, that good would come of it.

So,

[1] What major accomplishments have been done under the "federal whistle-blower laws" ?

[2] What are the major achievements when people "bring their complaints to Congress" ?

[3] Are there any well-known progress done when people "protest within the institutions where they work" like CIA or FBI ?

If there are many successful stories via the above three channels, then Snowden is not a bright dude for what he has done.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please totally ignore the stuff below if you don't agree with the irony.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally it's my chance to say any thing fancy, fashionable and righteous like this, and I am really excited !

Free speech for USA ! Overthrow this dictator Obama administration and put those tyrant major corporation owners in prison ! Since the Patriot Act, the States has turned into a police state !

A governmental project aimed at breeding another John Edgar Hoover ? Too bad for politician business !

What about freedom ?! What about democracy ?! What about human rights ?!

Now no one knows Snowden's whereabouts. The government must have abducted him !

They SHOULD release dissidents immediately ! Or else, the people will wait three more years and forget about this, have other more important issues like jobs and etc. on their mind, and vote for a not that bad apple from two seemingly charming but in fact representatives of major private corporates' benefits.

Hum ... will this be put on record and turned against me when I apply for a USA visa ? If so, PM me and I will always be glad to withdraw my naive and ideological nonsense talk.

Want something? Then do something.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-06-2013, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 06:51 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 03:01 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  I found this article online about Snowden:

EDWARD SNOWDEN IS NO HERO

And I am curious about this thing:

Quote:The American government, and its democracy, are flawed institutions. But our system offers legal options to disgruntled government employees and contractors. They can take advantage of federal whistle-blower laws; they can bring their complaints to Congress; they can try to protest within the institutions where they work. But Snowden did none of this. Instead, in an act that speaks more to his ego than his conscience, he threw the secrets he knew up in the air—and trusted, somehow, that good would come of it.

So,

[1] What major accomplishments have been done under the "federal whistle-blower laws" ?

[2] What are the major achievements when people "bring their complaints to Congress" ?

[3] Are there any well-known progress done when people "protest within the institutions where they work" like CIA or FBI ?

If there are many successful stories via the above three channels, then Snowden is not a bright dude for what he has done.

Off the cuff with no research so I could be very wrong:

1) The whistle blower laws are simply protections offered up to those who would choose to expose these kinds of things through official government channels. I believe they are more aimed at private corporations than government. IE if I worked for a drug company and I leaked information about negligence and falsified testing to the FDA they would protect me from law suits and whatnot from the company. Of course these companies have small armies of lawyers have contributed to the campaign funds various officials and have former employees serving in the agencies that are supposed to police them. Also once you are outed as a whistle blower good luck getting hired by another large corporation.

2) Haha, in the past I'm sure it's been effective, and in matters of national security I'm sure it's effective, but right now congress is in a state of gridlock and anything that goes against the will of corporate america and the extreme right (which controls the house) will be ignored. Plus you need some clout to be called into a congressional hearing, if the voting public is unaware of the issue there is no incentive for congress to entertain it (heck as I understand it sometimes the vast majority of committee members don't even show up). Watch the hearings on the Iraq war or the 08 bank fraud hearings, you can talk all day but there are few senators interested in actually serving their committees, so much as gaining re-election, covering their own asses and pleasing their respective bases.

3) The CIA used to be a protected entity that functioned autonomously for reasons of accurate reporting, but when it became a spy agency rather than an information agency it lost a lot of it's credibility. The FBI and CIA are clandestine agencies, where money and influence can pull strings at various levels and where false reporting happens all the time. Field agents may only have one or two points of contact(in the case of the CIA this helps facilitate plausible deniability) and if their points of contact are corrupted they may execute orders that are not in the interest of the electorate. Generally the top brass of such an agency would never admit it's wrong doings and it never really has too.

...So yeah I might be paranoid and suspicious by most standards but I wouldn't believe the official rhetoric either, that why stuff like wiki leaks exists in the first place.

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ridethespiral's post
12-06-2013, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 03:53 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
Although I do have to say that the fact that I have not been picked up by an un-marked van and imprisoned for expressing these views is a testament to the spirit of the nation (maybe I just don't matter enough).

In any event at least for now we still have discourse available to us, which is far more than many other peoples in the world have.

In Iran I would be killed for my open Atheism, and correct me if I'm wrong but speaking out against the party, or walking around with a video camera and blogging in China is likely to attract to some government minders....and in North Korea I'm quite sure that I would be long since dead or imprisoned in a concentration camp along with the entirety of my family.

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-06-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 03:34 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Off the cuff with no research so I could be very wrong:

1) The whistle blower laws are simply protections offered up to those who would choose to expose these kinds of things through official government channels. I believe they are more aimed at private corporations than government. IE if I worked for a drug company and I leaked information about negligence and falsified testing to the FDA they would protect me from law suits and whatnot from the company. Of course these companies have small armies of lawyers have contributed to the campaign funds various officials and have former employees serving in the agencies that are supposed to police them. Also once you are outed as a whistle blower good luck getting hired by another large corporation.

2) Haha, in the past I'm sure it's been effective, and in matters of national security I'm sure it's effective, but right now congress is in a state of gridlock and anything that goes against the will of corporate america and the extreme right (which controls the house) will be ignored. Plus you need some clout to be called into a congressional hearing. Watch the hearings on the Iraq war or the 08 bank fraud hearings, you can talk all day but there are few senators interested in actually serving their committees, so much as gaining re-election, covering their own asses and pleasing their respective bases.

3) The CIA used to be a protected entity that functioned autonomously for reasons of accurate reporting, but when it became a spy agency rather than an information agency it lost a lot of it's credibility. The FBI and CIA are clandestine agencies, where money and influence can pull strings at various levels and where false reporting happens all the time. Field agents may only have one or two points of contact and if their points of contact are corrupted they may execute orders that are not in the interest of the electorate. Generally the top brass of such an agency would never admit it's wrong doings and it never really has too.

...So yeah I might be paranoid and suspicious by most standards but I wouldn't believe the official rhetoric either, that why stuff like wiki leaks exists in the first place.

Very interesting information for me.

Thanks !

Want something? Then do something.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-06-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 03:01 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  [1] What major accomplishments have been done under the "federal whistle-blower laws" ?

The Federal Whistleblower Protection Act does not cover employees in the Intelligence Community. ... Or the Post Office, presumably for different reasons. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
12-06-2013, 06:34 PM
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
One correction to ridethespiral's post. Most of the whistleblower laws regarding the actions of US government relate to federal employees.
From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblow...ted_States

The Lloyd-LaFollette Act presumably applies even for those who work in intelligence when reported to the appropriate oversight committee that has intelligence oversight, though in no circumstances would disclosure of intelligence information to public outlets like the press be covered.

The problem for Edward Snowden ironically may be that he was NOT a federal employee, so he he would not be covered by this law. Laws exist to protect employees of private companies who disclose law violations to regulatory agencies that oversee them, but Snowden worked for a private contractor. Who was he supposed to report them to--the NSA who was running these programs? I think private contractors doing government work should have the same protections federal employees would have had in Snowden's position.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BryanS's post
12-06-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
One other quick point--Snowden would not have broken any laws disclosing the information to the intelligence oversight committees in the Senate or the House. He might have risked losing his job by doing so because he would not be covered by Lloyd-LaFollette, but he also would not have ricked breaking the law.

The simple fact that many in congress, including the intelligence committee members, were unaware of the extent of these programs meant that he could have achieved the same result without having to risk legal charges. I would have gone to congress first, not the press. I don't know for sure yet what to think of the guy, but I am glad that these civil liberty issues are out in the open and being debated in congress now.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BryanS's post
12-06-2013, 06:46 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 06:57 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 06:41 PM)BryanS Wrote:  One other quick point--Snowden would not have broken any laws disclosing the information to the intelligence oversight committees in the Senate or the House.

He wouldn't have been telling them anything they didn't already know. They were well aware. I am not at all sure the collection in and of itself is unconstitutional. Using the data for warrantless search would be. That's what the FISA courts are for. ... Did I mention carrying a smart phone is like voluntarily allowing the surgical implantation of an RFID and GPS chip in your ass, with a camera and mic.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
12-06-2013, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 07:13 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 06:34 PM)BryanS Wrote:  One correction to ridethespiral's post. Most of the whistleblower laws regarding the actions of US government relate to federal employees.
From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblow...ted_States

The Lloyd-LaFollette Act presumably applies even for those who work in intelligence when reported to the appropriate oversight committee that has intelligence oversight, though in no circumstances would disclosure of intelligence information to public outlets like the press be covered.

The problem for Edward Snowden ironically may be that he was NOT a federal employee, so he he would not be covered by this law. Laws exist to protect employees of private companies who disclose law violations to regulatory agencies that oversee them, but Snowden worked for a private contractor. Who was he supposed to report them to--the NSA who was running these programs? I think private contractors doing government work should have the same protections federal employees would have had in Snowden's position.

I read about as much of that wiki page as I could stomach before coming down with an awful case of acronym ingestion sydrom... Thanks for keeping me honest

I really don't know what you do in the kind of situation if you are really determined to get results without exposing it to the public? Take it to a congressman like Bernie Sanders and hope he doesn't get silenced? I guess apparently the electronic wiretapping was legal so thats not really the job of congress, though it is clearly in violation of the 4th amendment so I guess that makes it the domain of the supreme court but how do you bring it to trial without exposing it?

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ridethespiral's post
12-06-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: Need a little help about this PRISM Program leak thing.
(12-06-2013 06:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 06:41 PM)BryanS Wrote:  One other quick point--Snowden would not have broken any laws disclosing the information to the intelligence oversight committees in the Senate or the House.

He wouldn't have been telling them anything they didn't already know. They were well aware. I am not at all sure the collection in and of itself is unconstitutional. Using the data for warrantless search would be. ... Did I mention carrying a smart phone is like voluntarily allowing the surgical implantation of an RFID and GPS chip in your ass, with a camera and mic.

Ron Wyden is on the intelligence committee. He's about as good as you can get on civil liberties in the Senate. If your job is working for an intelligence contractor, you would be likely to know this. Wyden was rather angry at being intentionally lied to at worse, or at best intentionally misled by Director of National Intelligence James Clapper. You can listen to Wyden's very direct question, months before the Snowden disclosures, and the direct lie Clapper gave to him here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJm....be&t=6m9s

I got this link by the way from Wyden's posting to his Senate web page disclosing that he gave this same question about NSA data collection to clapper before the hearing so he could get good, accurate information
http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-r...-americans

The agencies lied to the committee responsible for oversight about the extent of their programs.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BryanS's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: