Need a little help...
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24-10-2011, 08:19 PM
RE: Need a little help...
From the good old SAB:

Matthew 10:33 - "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." I.e. since atheists deny the divinity of Jesus, we won't get into heaven.

Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." This clearly states that atheist (i.e. those who "believeth not") are going to be damned... and to where are people damned? Hell, of course!


But... it's not only atheists that are going to go to hell... Pretty much everybody is!

Luke 13:23-24 - "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."


Hope these help Tongue

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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25-10-2011, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2011 07:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Need a little help...
(24-10-2011 05:50 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Having a debate with a fundy. He claims that the bible doesn't say atheists will go to hell.

I think I may get fundy's point Stark, but Mark Fulton or one of our other Biblical scholars here more familiar with history would have to comment. Fundy's point may be that back in the day everybody believed in something just not what they should have. The fundy's point may be that they were not yet intellectually acute enough to grasp the concepts of "not believing in anything" or the even more sophisticated concept of "believing in nothing" so they couldn't even comment on atheists. The obvious counter to that would be, "Well why the hell were they so ignorant, the ancient Greek philosophers were familiar with both these concepts centuries before Christ simultaneously with the Buddhists." ... Kinda like Newton and Liebniz with the calculus. .... Who gets the credit and who's gonna provide the notation that does the work?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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26-10-2011, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2011 06:34 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Need a little help...
(25-10-2011 06:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-10-2011 05:50 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Having a debate with a fundy. He claims that the bible doesn't say atheists will go to hell.

I think I may get fundy's point Stark, but Mark Fulton or one of our other Biblical scholars here more familiar with history would have to comment. Fundy's point may be that back in the day everybody believed in something just not what they should have. The fundy's point may be that they were not yet intellectually acute enough to grasp the concepts of "not believing in anything" or the even more sophisticated concept of "believing in nothing" so they couldn't even comment on atheists. The obvious counter to that would be, "Well why the hell were they so ignorant, the ancient Greek philosophers were familiar with both these concepts centuries before Christ simultaneously with the Buddhists." ... Kinda like Newton and Liebniz with the calculus. .... Who gets the credit and who's gonna provide the notation that does the work?

Hi stark raving and everyone.

I don't think "Jesus" mentions atheists. (The Old Testament bad mouths them though). "He" does talk about hell though. The following may give you some ammunition when discussing hell with fundies. Forgive the cut and paste from my own writing...

Jesus said, “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!…woe to you, blind guides…You blind fools!…You blind men!…You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matt. 23:13–34, NJB).
“Well then, just as the darnel is gathered up and burnt in the fire, so it will be at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that provoke offences and all who do evil, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth” (Matt. 13:40–43, NJB).
“Next he will say to those on his left hand ‘Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’’’ (Matt. 25:41, NJB).

Jesus was undoubtedly convinced of the reality of hell. He seemed to get great satisfaction out of imagining people he disliked burning in agony for all eternity.

His threats raise four key issues:
First, he would have had no need to threaten people with hellfire if he had made a convincing case that what he talked about was fact. The very fact that disbelief would be met with punishment (argumentum ad baculum, or literally an “argument with a cudgel”) is not evidence the belief is true. If Jesus had eloquently spoken what was obviously the truth, the crowds would have believed him. If he had actually performed miracles, there could have been no doubt he was the real thing. People weren’t stupid. It is obvious he resorted to threats after he’d failed to convince them.

Second, it is clear Jesus believed that the love of the divine arbitrator was only granted to those who behaved in a certain way. Most people today would say that true, real love, such that a parent has for a child, is unconditional. Jesus portrays God as being in a relationship with humankind for his own satisfaction. If God doesn’t get what he wants, he becomes a vindictive, evil tyrant who would burn people in hell forever, not something a loving father would do.

Third, these quotes cause confusion in anyone trying to rationalize Jesus’ doctrine. Jesus advised people to love their enemies, bless those that curse them, and forgive seventy times seven times. He hardly set an example by threatening to burn people in hell forever.

Fourth, one wonders on what basis God made the decision on who goes to hell? Jesus claimed God will put sheep on his right, goats on his left. There must be borderline people with whom God will need to decide what to do. He could put a gate in the fence and have some goats some days in heaven, some days in hell, or there could be some goats with two feet in heaven, two in hell. Perhaps God could turn the furnace on full for the really bad goats and on simmer for the not-so-bad? It is obvious these possibilities are not satisfactory.

There is no way churches can justify teaching about hell to sensitive, innocent children. How can they expect a child to reconcile an all-good God with an intense fear of eternal damnation? Many adults have vivid childhood memories of imagining the fires of hell and the immense, unending, unendurable pain. This psychological bullying is child abuse.

Christians sometimes claim that individuals make their own choice by either accepting or rejecting Jesus. How sincerely must one “accept Jesus” to get into heaven, and how can one prove it? By praying to Jesus? Once? A thousand times? Does “accepting Jesus” excuse Christians from heinous crimes they may have committed? What does “rejecting Jesus” mean? Not going to church on Sunday? Every Sunday? What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Have they rejected him? The truth about this, the bottom line, is that “accepting Jesus” means accepting being told what to believe by someone authoritative from a church, and all the different churches have their own interpretations. Church people know how to create, then calm, newcomers’ fears—mention hell and then convince them to embrace Jesus and comply.

In the past, the idea of hell justified terrible behavior by churches. It gave them a license to burn any helpless person they didn’t like, claiming they were just beginning on earth the roasting God was to continue for all eternity.

The whole concept of punishing people forever is immoral! Our understanding of time has changed since the Bible was written. People living in 150 CE would have thought two hundred years was an eternity…we now understand mind-boggling numbers like “trillions” and mathematical concepts like “infinity.” They didn’t.
But churches still commonly use the threat of hell to control people’s behavior. This is quite rightly an embarrassment to many modern Christians, who choose not to talk about the ancient or medieval view of hell anymore.


(24-10-2011 07:07 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Problem is, this moron is arguing that atheists can't blaspheme because you can't blaspheme something you don't believe exists.

He obviously hasn't thought this through because no sane person is going to blaspheme against a judgmental punitive Christian god if he actually thinks that god exists. Hence, according to his argument, there is no such thing as blasphemy.
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26-10-2011, 11:41 AM
RE: Need a little help...
Great arguments Mark. Thanks a ton.

Unfortunately, this guy has degraded the conversation to name calling and spewing hate, so I politely (well, not so much) bowed out.

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26-10-2011, 01:28 PM
RE: Need a little help...
(26-10-2011 06:26 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  (The Old Testament bad mouths them though).

Hi Mark,

I was a little worried about derailing Stark's thread but it seems the argument with the fundy is moot now anyway, so I would appreciate if you could give me some references for that statement for my own personal edification.

Thanks,
Girly

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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26-10-2011, 02:55 PM
RE: Need a little help...
(26-10-2011 01:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I was a little worried about derailing Stark's thread but it seems the argument with the fundy is moot now anyway...

Dodgy Moot now?
I've come to the conclusion that any and all arguments with a fundy are forever moot. The way they make shit up... I'm convinced they've all decided to martyr themselves as antagonistic fools. Rolleyes
Fundys are a waste of skin and more importantly, time.
Heart

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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26-10-2011, 02:58 PM
RE: Need a little help...
(26-10-2011 02:55 PM)kim Wrote:  Dodgy Moot now?
I've come to the conclusion that any and all arguments with a fundy are forever moot. The way they make shit up... I'm convinced they've all decided to martyr themselves as antagonistic fools. Rolleyes
Fundys are a waste of skin and more importantly, time.
Heart

Whenever I hear a fundie speak it amazes me that that sperm even found its way to the uterus, let alone beat several million other sperm to the egg!

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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26-10-2011, 02:58 PM
RE: Need a little help...
Don't ever worry about derailing one of my threads.

1. It's not my thread, it's ours.

2. I LOVE when a thread evolves into a different topic all together. That's the beauty of conversation. (If I need more on the original topic, I'll just ask for more)


Converse away gang!

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26-10-2011, 04:59 PM
RE: Need a little help...
Hey, Stark.

What's his actual argument?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-10-2011, 06:52 PM
RE: Need a little help...
(26-10-2011 01:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-10-2011 06:26 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  (The Old Testament bad mouths them though).

Hi Mark,

I was a little worried about derailing Stark's thread but it seems the argument with the fundy is moot now anyway, so I would appreciate if you could give me some references for that statement for my own personal edification.

Thanks,
Girly

Sure girlyman, no problem..
“[For the choirmaster of David:] The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ Their deeds are corrupt and vile, not one of them does right” (Ps. 14:1, NJB).
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