Need help with an argument
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20-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Need help with an argument
So I am new here, not sure where to post a question about the argument that I am having on another forum, to which at this point I am having trouble because I am not well read on the subject of Quantum Mechanics. I'll just post the argument and you guys or gals can decide to help me by giving advice or not


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20-11-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Need help with an argument
Like you said in that thread, it's one of those "first cause" arguments.
For some reason god is always exempt from having a cause or a beginning, but try applying that to our universe and they all cry foul.

My two copper pieces...

First... the only knowledge about god's lack of a beginning and/or cause comes from the bible.
There is absolutely zero direct, indirect or circumstantial tangible evidence of these properties of god (lack of evidence of a god in the first place not withstanding) outside of the bible. So then it comes down to whether or not the bible itself is a reliable source in the first place.
Get into that and you can start to change the game. Wink

Second... from what I understand about the big bang, and I've said this before, is that time itself, as we understand and perceive it, started along with space at the moment of the bang.
So, in theory, the universe didn't have a "technical" cause since there really was no such thing as "before" before the big bang.
I guess that starts to get into all kinds of weird crap, and I get headaches trying to think about it, but it's all kinda reasonable given what we know and understand now.

And if they start getting into the whole "You can't know what happened in the beginning" crap, show them all the info and data collected by researchers and scientists and astronomers over the centuries.
Then ask them to show you their data, what hypotheses they've put forward, what tests and experiments they've run, to understand the "beginning" and nature of god.
And when they whip out their bible, (because they will, since they have a whole "the-bible-said-it-I-beleive-it" mentality) you can go back to point 1. Tongue

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20-11-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Need help with an argument
Did I miss the memo that said that the cosmological argument all of the sudden hasn't been debunked thousands of years ago? Drinking Beverage

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20-11-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Need help with an argument
He is a muslim just to let you know Tongue

Thanks for your input, I'm still working on a response
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20-11-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: Need help with an argument
(20-11-2012 11:34 AM)Nova Wrote:  He is a muslim just to let you know Tongue

Thanks for your input, I'm still working on a response
Ask him for his solution of the M√ľnchhausen trilemma.

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20-11-2012, 07:00 PM
RE: Need help with an argument
(20-11-2012 11:22 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  And if they start getting into the whole "You can't know what happened in the beginning" crap

My response to this has always been "Then neither can you or anyone else." Should I revise?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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21-11-2012, 08:01 AM
RE: Need help with an argument
(20-11-2012 07:00 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(20-11-2012 11:22 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  And if they start getting into the whole "You can't know what happened in the beginning" crap

My response to this has always been "Then neither can you or anyone else." Should I revise?
No, of course not, because it's the truth.
But then they'll whip out Genesis and show you how they can "know" what happened at the beginning. Tongue

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