Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
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10-03-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
Well, I dunno. Maybe some lichen? What do rocks like? I mean. Humans, yes, go do something exciting then go for a meal afterwards... That's pretty standard. Not sure about rocks...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-03-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
Quote:“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”

― Neil deGrasse Tyson

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10-03-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
(10-03-2014 01:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Radiometric dating relies on the fact that unstable radioactive elements decay at a predictable, constant rate. Scientist also use multiple other methods to check the accuracy such as geologic layer deposition and ice layer deposition in the Antarctic. But I have found that every creationist will say that these methods assume a constant rate of decay or tree ring growth or layer deposition. They'll just say that it could have been different in the past and that is throwing off the age estimate and that the Earth is really only 6,000 years old. Explaining how the dates are arrived at and verified with probably not do any good.

I wouldn't give them that one. The decay rates are different for each isotope so if there was a general change in rates the dates shouldn't consistently line up with each other. If they want to come up with exact numbers for the change of decay rates then fine, we can challenge that, but until then I wouldn't let up in any debate with them. Different isotopes give the same answers. Can they quantify this mysterious change?

And don't forget this - when you start to play around with the laws of sub-atomic particle physics you'll quickly find yourself switching off the sun. Decay rates don't exist independently of the rest of the universe.

So don't take their wishy-washy vague crap. If they dispute the science, let them quantify it.

Hate the belief, love the believer.
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10-03-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
(10-03-2014 01:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  . If they want to prove the bible by throwing doubt on science then throw the doubt right back at them. The argument goes both ways. I don't think you will convince them but you might open up their minds a little.

They simply will not accept any evidence that proves the bible wrong but you can show them that by discrediting science they are not proving the bible is right.

^^ THIS -- this is the issue, because honestly neither one of us have any clue what is done to date things….but its that constant discredit by throwing doubt. That is my issue.

So the conversation came up about Cosmos. And it went something like

Him: "I don't they (scientists) can really know how old the universe is.

Me: why not?

Him: well- there's so much speculation out there, I know they have tested things in the past and came up with dates that said it was millions of years old and they knew it wasn't.

Me: well, I'm pretty Neil DeGrasse Tyson knows his stuff pretty well considering his resume (which we had discussed earlier in the day), and I"m pretty sure he has looked into it and knows whether or not those dates are correct.

Me: if it was wrong, scientists would be out to prove it wrong. When one of them proves NGT wrong they will be all over the news about it too. They like to do that to each other. They follow the evidence.

Him: yeah, well, I just don't think they know. There's other places (aig) that say otherwise.


Facepalm


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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10-03-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
(10-03-2014 06:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 06:27 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I have just started a discussion with a family member who was raised with creation viewpoints. They have stated that many of their doubts of scientists revolve around errors in dating artifacts, time in space, etc. how can we accurately date events and objects to millions and billions of years?

We are just lightly discussing this topic, and I am not one to hammer someone just to prove a point. I would much rather take a gentle approach - teach how I know something and why I think that way.

I get the feeling the battle I am up against is a perceived history that scientists have been fooled or errors occurred with items of a known age being identified as ancient, therefore scientists can't age anything correctly.


Can you point me to some sources or ideas on how to answer this intelligently.

TIA

The Wikipedia article is good.

Keep in mind that there are multiple, overlapping methods of dating things and they all agree with each other.

Beat me to it Chas, that is my go to easy reference, very good article.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-03-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: Need help with discussion on dating of rocks and such.
Do what I do tell them if they want to play science then they must do what science does. Here is a step by step process on how I debate creationist:

1. Force definitions. If they don't define words you do it for them. For example it they don't define something like the word observational you define it.

2. No laymans explanation. This is what they don't understand. Put a brief but full detailed explanation for the science they ignore.

3. Push them to a point where they have to say I don't know. Most creationist don't want to reach this point because when they do they realize that they're god doesn't have the answer for everything.

4. Tell them they don't have to be an atheist to accept science

5. Demand sources. When they make a claim ask them to give you sources for said claim

6. Last be kind and speak calmly. Keeping calm and being kind will end up making a creationist listen too you better then if you were yelling at them.

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