Need help with origin of universe
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24-07-2015, 07:35 AM
Need help with origin of universe
I am in the process of deconversion and I'm trying to research and establish a logical view on the origin of the universe. My question is this: Does the second law of thermodynamics apply universally and rule out the expanding universe theory in favor for an ever-existant universe?
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24-07-2015, 08:02 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 07:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  I am in the process of deconversion and I'm trying to research and establish a logical view on the origin of the universe. My question is this: Does the second law of thermodynamics apply universally and rule out the expanding universe theory in favor for an ever-existant universe?

The Second Law is not an issue there, why do your feel it is?

There are many hypotheses but the only known fact is that we don't know.
If you want to understand the scientific view, you will have to get comfortable with not always having the answer.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-07-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
If you search for something to read about origin of universe I would reccomend A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2015, 08:15 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 07:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  I am in the process of deconversion and I'm trying to research and establish a logical view on the origin of the universe. My question is this: Does the second law of thermodynamics apply universally and rule out the expanding universe theory in favor for an ever-existant universe?

The Second Law is not an issue there, why do your feel it is?

There are many hypotheses but the only known fact is that we don't know.
If you want to understand the scientific view, you will have to get comfortable with not always having the answer.

I totally understand that, I am just asking if the second law of thermodynamics could be used to argue against the expanding universe theory? If it doesn't apply, please help me to understand why not. Thanks
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24-07-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
I don't think I understand how someone would use the Second Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law...odynamics) to argue against the Universe existing without the need of a god.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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24-07-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
People have tried (and failed) to say the Second Law argues against a natural origin of life and against evolution. But this requires a straw man version of abiogenesis, evolution, and the general nature of the Earth system as a whole within our solar system.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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24-07-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  People have tried (and failed) to say the Second Law argues against a natural origin of life and against evolution. But this requires a straw man version of abiogenesis, evolution, and the general nature of the Earth system as a whole within our solar system.

I am familiar with the use of the law to argue against evolution. I should clarify my line of thinking here. Coming from the standpoint of an already existing universe, someone might argue for the big bang and that the universe expanded out from a point of singularity. But if all things move from order to disorder, this would mean that the universe is in a state of continuous contraction. The cause for singularity can only be supported mathematically after the big bang, not during or prior. The laws of physics break down in those areas. This could point towards an ever existent universe rather than a god made or bang made one
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24-07-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
At work.

I think the OP is kind of lacking a sense of scale. To paraphrase Mr Adams "The univers is big, really, really ginourmously hugely big."

So.... (And I am totally guessing here) over a large enough distance, one 'systems' entropy will not effect another. So.. the state of the Earth will not effect Pluto.However the state of the Sun will effect both...... but the state of our Sun will not effect the suns of Alpha Centaury.

As for the universe as a whole... the current distance is kind of why (Again, smarter peoples than me will be along to correct everything I've gotten wrong) entropy is not a 'thing'.

The discovery that everything is getting further and faster apart is because of that something else the smart people are currently calling 'Dark matter' (Or is it dark energy?) which is being the cause. Which again is not entropy.

Wish I had more time and proper keyboard for a longer/better post etc.
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24-07-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  The cause for singularity can only be supported mathematically after the big bang, not during or prior. The laws of physics break down in those areas. This could point towards an ever existent universe rather than a god made or bang made one

It also applies to a closed system. For as much as I know the "space" that the universe occupys is not a closed system.

There are other evidences that demonstrate the occurrence of the big bang.

In 1925 Edward Hubble made a discovery that there was a direct correlation between the distance and speed of galexeys from a central point. This is now known as Hubbles Law.

In 1975 Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias used The Bell Labs antenna in Crawford Hill, in northeastern New Jersey, was designed to trace signals bounced off satellites. But Penzias and Wilson used it to study radio emissions from the Milky Way. They needed quiet. Instead, they found noise — a strange, maddening hum.
They did all they could to stop this noise, asking houses near by to turn off tv's and radios, killing pigeons that roosted on the device. But still it remaind. What they discoverd was the comic background echo. Noise left over from the event of the big bang.

This is the electromaginet image of this event.

[Image: hintergrundstrahlung.jpg]
Cosmic Background Radiation

Trying to contemplate what came before the event of the Big Bang is not an easy one. It's a concept that even the greatest minds in physics are battling on a constant basis. We may be a part of a more complex multi-verse. Or maybe we're the first. Or maybe we're the result of a different type of event

I agree with Szuchow if your a reader A Universe from Nothing By Lawrence Krauss is a good read. If your more of a viewer like me he's has a great number of videos from seminars on the internet. Whatever the case Lawrence Krauss (as long as he's dealing with Physics) is a good person to turn to.




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24-07-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  I am familiar with the use of the law to argue against evolution. I should clarify my line of thinking here. Coming from the standpoint of an already existing universe, someone might argue for the big bang and that the universe expanded out from a point of singularity. But if all things move from order to disorder, this would mean that the universe is in a state of continuous contraction. The cause for singularity can only be supported mathematically after the big bang, not during or prior. The laws of physics break down in those areas. This could point towards an ever existent universe rather than a god made or bang made one

The argument fails on the assumption that the trend from order to disorder is invariable. There are variations in location, and certainly we see movement from chaos to order in local-scales. Also, there seems to be the assumption that expansion = order that I don't think is supported at all. I don't think that entropic states are linked so directly with growth trends. A human being bets bigger as it grows older. Is that person becoming more or less chaotic?

But as Chas points out, "I don't know" is sometimes the best answer we have.
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