Need help with origin of universe
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24-07-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 08:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  People have tried (and failed) to say the Second Law argues against a natural origin of life and against evolution. But this requires a straw man version of abiogenesis, evolution, and the general nature of the Earth system as a whole within our solar system.

I am familiar with the use of the law to argue against evolution. I should clarify my line of thinking here. Coming from the standpoint of an already existing universe, someone might argue for the big bang and that the universe expanded out from a point of singularity. But if all things move from order to disorder, this would mean that the universe is in a state of continuous contraction. The cause for singularity can only be supported mathematically after the big bang, not during or prior. The laws of physics break down in those areas. This could point towards an ever existent universe rather than a god made or bang made one

Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

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24-07-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
I came up with this analogy several years ago...

(20-04-2012 02:38 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Some fundies often claim that the 2nd law of Thermodynamics disproves the BBT because a 14 billion-year-old universe would have collapsed from chaos eons ago. I have recently thought up an illustration to show them why this is not true. Just have them imagine the universe as a fish tank full of water. Now have them imagine chaos as a dropper full of red dye constantly dripping into the fish tank. Logic would dictate that, over time, the dye would eventually turn all of the water red, thus representing the destruction of the universe. However, the universe is not a closed system like this because it is expanding. You can illustrate the expansion by having them imagine a hose pumping water into the tank. The negative effect of the dye (chaos) is balanced out by the expanding water (universe).
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24-07-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
"Need help with origin of universe"

.... oh. I thought you were trying to make one. Never mind.

Confused

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24-07-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 08:35 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  I am familiar with the use of the law to argue against evolution. I should clarify my line of thinking here. Coming from the standpoint of an already existing universe, someone might argue for the big bang and that the universe expanded out from a point of singularity. But if all things move from order to disorder, this would mean that the universe is in a state of continuous contraction. The cause for singularity can only be supported mathematically after the big bang, not during or prior. The laws of physics break down in those areas. This could point towards an ever existent universe rather than a god made or bang made one

Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?
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24-07-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
At work.

(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

Then the deity is effectively non-ecludian

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24-07-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

Outside of time and space makes no sense to me. How come something exist outside of time because existence is predicated upon some temporal factor?

And we know of no evidence for anything existing outside of our universe (or even theoretically the ability for anything to exist outside of individual universes in a multiverse I guess).

The Christian argument of "outside of time and space" is akin to saying "lives in Valhalla." It isn't intended (by them) to be refuted. They don't want a refutation and won't listen to one.

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24-07-2015, 11:11 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

I would ask how they know it.

But to believer what you say don't really matter. Faith isn't about evidence so whatever you say can be rejected if it don't agree with one beliefs.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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24-07-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

I would ask how they know it.

But to believer what you say don't really matter. Faith isn't about evidence so whatever you say can be rejected if it don't agree with one beliefs.

It's the fallback they will always rely on. They believe it on faith, so your criticism and counter explanation is something they feel justified in ignoring.

Then they will say that you have faith or that atheism or science or naturalism are all religions, because they don't understand that by doing so they are admitting that they see faith-based positions and religions as not being as strong as those not based on faith or non-religious opinions. They undermine their own faith by trying to falsely label atheism or science as faith-based or a religion.

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24-07-2015, 11:18 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:13 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I would ask how they know it.

But to believer what you say don't really matter. Faith isn't about evidence so whatever you say can be rejected if it don't agree with one beliefs.

It's the fallback they will always rely on. They believe it on faith, so your criticism and counter explanation is something they feel justified in ignoring.

Then they will say that you have faith or that atheism or science or naturalism are all religions, because they don't understand that by doing so they are admitting that they see faith-based positions and religions as not being as strong as those not based on faith or non-religious opinions. They undermine their own faith by trying to falsely label atheism or science as faith-based or a religion.

Exactly. That's why I think that talking with believer is kinda like playing chess with pigeon.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:18 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:13 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's the fallback they will always rely on. They believe it on faith, so your criticism and counter explanation is something they feel justified in ignoring.

Then they will say that you have faith or that atheism or science or naturalism are all religions, because they don't understand that by doing so they are admitting that they see faith-based positions and religions as not being as strong as those not based on faith or non-religious opinions. They undermine their own faith by trying to falsely label atheism or science as faith-based or a religion.

Exactly. That's why I think that talking with believer is kinda like playing chess with pigeon.

Pigeon Poop can really mess things up if you aren't careful.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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