Need help with origin of universe
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24-07-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:05 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

Then the deity is effectively non-ecludian

Mwagn phatagn Cthulhu! Ai! Ai!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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24-07-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:21 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:18 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Exactly. That's why I think that talking with believer is kinda like playing chess with pigeon.

Pigeon Poop can really mess things up if you aren't careful.

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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24-07-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:21 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:05 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.


Then the deity is effectively non-ecludian

Mwagn phatagn Cthulhu! Ai! Ai!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.


Ai! Ai! Fhtagn!

Big Grin
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24-07-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Outside of time and space makes no sense to me. How come something exist outside of time because existence is predicated upon some temporal factor?

And we know of no evidence for anything existing outside of our universe (or even theoretically the ability for anything to exist outside of individual universes in a multiverse I guess).

The Christian argument of "outside of time and space" is akin to saying "lives in Valhalla." It isn't intended (by them) to be refuted. They don't want a refutation and won't listen to one.

I couldn't agree more. I had a conversion with one of my more educated friends he's a child psychiatrist for a rather large school district in Southern California. He's more of a Theist if anything, but mostly practices catholicism because his wife is one. Anyway during our converstion over some wine he pulled the "he's outside time and space card."

"Oh, come on! This makes no sense. Time is how we measure events ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measures of duration of events and the intervals between them. If a being was in a reality where time didn't exsit, then it would live in a realm where past, present and future never accrue. Now if such a being is some how was just out side of our space and this being took it's hand pushed it into our reality it would come out dripping with physics. Leaving giant indications of it being there. It is dishonest to say here is a complicated being that we can't prove and see, that lives infintaly more complicate exsitance that we can't prove or see.

His response was "Well we'll just have to wait and see wont we."

When I was young God lived in the clouds. Then I took a plane ride and saw this wasn't true. So then i was told he was higher place above the clouds. Then i learned about space. And saw he wasn't there eater. Then I though he was out of our solar system, our galaxy. and then finally Space and Time it self. How much further can we push him. until he just goes away.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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24-07-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 12:35 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 11:09 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Outside of time and space makes no sense to me. How come something exist outside of time because existence is predicated upon some temporal factor?

And we know of no evidence for anything existing outside of our universe (or even theoretically the ability for anything to exist outside of individual universes in a multiverse I guess).

The Christian argument of "outside of time and space" is akin to saying "lives in Valhalla." It isn't intended (by them) to be refuted. They don't want a refutation and won't listen to one.

I couldn't agree more. I had a conversion with one of my more educated friends he's a child psychiatrist for a rather large school district in Southern California. He's more of a Theist if anything, but mostly practices catholicism because his wife is one. Anyway during our converstion over some wine he pulled the "he's outside time and space card."

"Oh, come on! This makes no sense. Time is how we measure events ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measures of duration of events and the intervals between them. If a being was in a reality where time didn't exsit, then it would live in a realm where past, present and future never accrue. Now if such a being is some how was just out side of our space and this being took it's hand pushed it into our reality it would come out dripping with physics. Leaving giant indications of it being there. It is dishonest to say here is a complicated being that we can't prove and see, that lives infintaly more complicate exsitance that we can't prove or see.

His response was "Well we'll just have to wait and see wont we."

When I was young God lived in the clouds. Then I took a plane ride and saw this wasn't true. So then i was told he was higher place above the clouds. Then i learned about space. And saw he wasn't there eater. Then I though he was out of our solar system, our galaxy. and then finally Space and Time it self. How much further can we push him. until he just goes away.

Very well put! Christians accuse evolutionists of waving a magic wand of time to make evolution work, when they are trying to make time disappear all together!
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24-07-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 02:08 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 12:35 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I couldn't agree more. I had a conversion with one of my more educated friends he's a child psychiatrist for a rather large school district in Southern California. He's more of a Theist if anything, but mostly practices catholicism because his wife is one. Anyway during our converstion over some wine he pulled the "he's outside time and space card."

"Oh, come on! This makes no sense. Time is how we measure events ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measures of duration of events and the intervals between them. If a being was in a reality where time didn't exsit, then it would live in a realm where past, present and future never accrue. Now if such a being is some how was just out side of our space and this being took it's hand pushed it into our reality it would come out dripping with physics. Leaving giant indications of it being there. It is dishonest to say here is a complicated being that we can't prove and see, that lives infintaly more complicate exsitance that we can't prove or see.

His response was "Well we'll just have to wait and see wont we."

When I was young God lived in the clouds. Then I took a plane ride and saw this wasn't true. So then i was told he was higher place above the clouds. Then i learned about space. And saw he wasn't there eater. Then I though he was out of our solar system, our galaxy. and then finally Space and Time it self. How much further can we push him. until he just goes away.

Very well put! Christians accuse evolutionists of waving a magic wand of time to make evolution work, when they are trying to make time disappear all together!

"Evolutionists" is also not a thing. It is easier for them to apply a label to a group that doesn't exist (people who understand evolution are informed, not a group in and of themselves) so as to demonize and denounce it.

Makes it easier to oppose "them" if "they" are a group that isn't "us."

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24-07-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
I agree BeardDude. I get a mix of emotions when 'believers" jump form the big bang to evolution. A part of me can't help but laugh, while another part whats to cry, followed by uter dismay.

And when you hear people refering to people that understand how evolution works as "Evolutionists" i'm just confused. As if it's some sort of life falosofy? All the Evolutionists gather on mondays at the local lake to prase the fish they started as.

Octapulse, i know right. If they would only hold up a mirror?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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24-07-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 02:28 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I agree BeardDude. I get a mix of emotions when 'believers" jump form the big bang to evolution. A part of me can't help but laugh, while another part whats to cry, followed by uter dismay.

And when you hear people refering to people that understand how evolution works as "Evolutionists" i'm just confused. As if it's some sort of life falosofy? All the Evolutionists gather on mondays at the local lake to prase the fish they started as.

Octapulse, i know right. If they would only hold up a mirror?

Praise be unto Tiktaalik. May it show me how to better use my lobes

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24-07-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 08:15 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 08:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  The Second Law is not an issue there, why do your feel it is?

There are many hypotheses but the only known fact is that we don't know.
If you want to understand the scientific view, you will have to get comfortable with not always having the answer.

I totally understand that, I am just asking if the second law of thermodynamics could be used to argue against the expanding universe theory? If it doesn't apply, please help me to understand why not. Thanks

Who is claiming it does apply? And why or how so?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-07-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: Need help with origin of universe
(24-07-2015 11:02 AM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Well, let me put it this way:

1) The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe from t=0 to now. It isn't really a description of the HOW the universe started per se.

2) Part of the issue with looking at that point at t=0 is that you are trying to discuss a point in "space" where there was no time. I have a hard time conceptualizing this since everything I think about requires some sort of temporal scale. Can there be a cause without time? I think quantum physicists believe this is possible based on the interactions between matter and anti-matter, but I am no quantum physicist.

3) Since there seems to be a t=0 implied by the Big Bang, that means there is no "before the Big Bang" and that effectively removes any scenario of creation as there is no time (let alone space) for a creator to create.

4) And the last point is the idea that the universe is eternal. Which would seem to have to be true since space and time seem to originate together. So, as long as there has been time, there has been a universe.

That makes more sense. How would you answer to the Christian argument that god exists outside of time and space?

I ask them to explain what that means, because it implies that he/she/it can have no effect on things inside of space and time.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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