Need help with suspected New Age wooer
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11-09-2017, 01:20 AM
Need help with suspected New Age wooer
I'm having an online debate with a suspected New Age wooer. I think he's a New Age wooer of some kind because his online name refers to too many prophets, he's never mentioned a deity and he's posts are sciency - so he's not your standard, garden variety Abrahamic religionist.

His first premise was: "Firstly, the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood is not necessary for survival" and he goes on to argue consciousness couldn't have evolved, it had to come from somewhere else ( cue Quantum woo/ Consciousness of The Universe- insert your favourite New Age cosmic supernatural force or deity explanation here). He quote mines to argue his position, using people like Daniel Bor and Steven Pinker.

I've pointed out his first premise is demonstrably wrong, but he won't have it. Interestingly, he goes on to give examples demonstrating his first premise is wrong himself, but doesn't seem to know he's doing it.

I've also pointed out he's arguing from authorities who don't support his position that consciousness was some kind of cosmic gift from the Universe, but he chopped the end off my words and misrepresented me as merely saying he was arguing from authority.

Here are the problems I'm having and here's where I need help:

* I've run searches with terms like "evolved consciousness", "evolutionary consciousness", "evolved consciousness to distinguish truth from falsehood for survival" and I get page after page of bloody New Age woo with a bit of theist/deist woo thrown in. It's like sorting through the rubbish in the wheelie bin to find your wedding ring! I'd really appreciate some links to good references I can use and cite.

* I don't know anything much about the evolution of consciousness and less about New Age woo. The New Age woo stuff just strikes me as silly- like a trendy Pascal's Wager and an attempt to make a sow's ear out of science's silk purse, so I'd really appreciate a crash course in New Age beliefs in consciousness. I find wooers hard to debate because they use pseudoscience.

This is my first post, so I hope the forum community will help me out.
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11-09-2017, 01:33 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
I think the way to argue is to go back to scientific consensus. If you can find out what current scientific thinking is on evolution of consciousness, chuck in some references to published research and let him argue with that - if he is this new agey twit then he'll start talking about how science isn't everything etc. The thing is, unless he can also back up his claims with published research then he's just a bullshitter.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-09-2017, 01:49 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
First, welcome to the forum.

If he is just pushing general woo, why care? If he's pushing something as dangerous as Christianity, that's different.

It may help if I knew just what his arguments are from him. I am getting this information from a second source. How can I comment?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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11-09-2017, 02:52 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
Firstly?


When they start with overinflated verbiosity using words like firstly, you know you're in for a session of pulling teeth.

No amount of nitrous is going to help.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-09-2017, 03:01 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
(11-09-2017 02:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Firstly?


When they start with overinflated verbiosity using words like firstly, you know you're in for a session of pulling teeth.

No amount of nitrous is going to help.

Blame the Queen. It's her English. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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11-09-2017, 03:07 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
(11-09-2017 03:01 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(11-09-2017 02:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Firstly?


When they start with overinflated verbiosity using words like firstly, you know you're in for a session of pulling teeth.

No amount of nitrous is going to help.

Blame the Queen. It's her English. Smile

Oh, rather...

Tongue

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-09-2017, 03:10 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
(11-09-2017 02:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Firstly?


When they start with overinflated verbiosity using words like firstly, you know you're in for a session of pulling teeth.

No amount of nitrous is going to help.

> I had a colleague at work who used to spout that New Age nonsense every day. Like the person in Sushisnake's post, she quote mined from various sources that suited her purposes. Whenever confronted with actual science, however, she would invariably reply, "I feel no need to prove/defend my beliefs!"

> People like this are comfortable in their bubble of make-believe and will not risk doing or thinking anything which might risk bursting that bubble.
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11-09-2017, 03:50 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
(11-09-2017 01:20 AM)Sushisnake Wrote:  ...
His first premise was: "Firstly, the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood is not necessary for survival"
...

His first premise is correct. Yes

(11-09-2017 01:20 AM)Sushisnake Wrote:  ...
he goes on to argue consciousness couldn't have evolved, it had to come from somewhere else
...

Argument from ignorance.

Consciousness is your self-monitoring systems's self-monitoring system and is a Virtual Machine.

To understand how this system software can have evolved have a look at Dan Dennett's register machine.


(11-09-2017 01:20 AM)Sushisnake Wrote:  ...
This is my first post, so I hope the forum community will help me out.

No it isn't. This is. It's your fourth post.

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11-09-2017, 04:00 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
Thanks for the replies and the welcome, guys.

It turns out he's a Muslim. I was late to the conversation and missed his references to Islam and the Divine. He's posted 30 pages over three weeks and I haven't read them yet, but I will. His claim about truth/falsehood recognition not being necessary for survival jumped out at me because it's just so outrageously stupid. It was that claim I was looking to refute by finding linkable science references and quotes, but ended up with pages of spooky woo instead. I could do a crash course in mindfulness and the Consciousness of the Universe using my google search results, but it didn’t turn up the Society for Neuroscience! Pages and pages of woo! It startled me.

I agree New Age woo isn't as dangerous as the big three Abrahamics, but it's still dangerous: anything that conflates science and religion is. Look at the attacks on the Theory of Evolution. And a little bit of sciency knowledge can be just enough to discredit climate or vaccination science, too.

I had a colleague like it, too, onlinebiker. Her main beef was Big Pharma/vaccines cause autism. The scary part is we were both intellectual disability support workers working with - you guessed it- people with autism. It didn't matter how many times she was shown the science or how many times it was explained that correlation wasn't causation, she wouldn't have it, and she didn't hold back from telling parents what caused their child's autism, either. As I said, New Age stuff ain't harmless.
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11-09-2017, 04:03 AM
RE: Need help with suspected New Age wooer
I wonder what it takes to woo in this new age? Consider

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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