Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
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29-01-2018, 09:25 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 09:18 PM)brunumb Wrote:  What is exactly is the standard definition of God?

The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

cf. Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, etc.
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29-01-2018, 09:49 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 09:25 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:18 PM)brunumb Wrote:  What is exactly is the standard definition of God?

The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

cf. Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, etc.

That's it? That's the whole definition of God? What a crock. No

No gods necessary.
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29-01-2018, 10:27 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 09:25 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

God is Bob, Bob is God. All is Slack. ... Smile

#sigh
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29-01-2018, 10:49 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 09:25 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:18 PM)brunumb Wrote:  What is exactly is the standard definition of God?

The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

cf. Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, etc.

Hello!

Though I note you also point to Augustine, Aquinas et-al...


That you manetion Plato (And others od a deific bent have to me as well) I can not help but ask/note.

At the time of Plato the notion of 'God' was, in fact, a Pantheon of multiple dieties.

So... where in amongst this pantheon would such a concept of 'God is good' actually arise/come from?

Consider

I have not yet had a reply... Other than one diest who 'Back dated' their idea of 'Jesus=God' to before the Anciet Greeks and Romans etc.

Which, in and of itself, kind of threw me for a loop.

Much cheers. Thumbsup
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30-01-2018, 01:42 AM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 10:49 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:25 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

cf. Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, etc.

Hello!

Though I note you also point to Augustine, Aquinas et-al...


That you manetion Plato (And others od a deific bent have to me as well) I can not help but ask/note.

At the time of Plato the notion of 'God' was, in fact, a Pantheon of multiple dieties.

So... where in amongst this pantheon would such a concept of 'God is good' actually arise/come from?

Consider

I have not yet had a reply... Other than one diest who 'Back dated' their idea of 'Jesus=God' to before the Anciet Greeks and Romans etc.

Which, in and of itself, kind of threw me for a loop.

Much cheers. Thumbsup

Thank you! That's a fun question.

It's true that in Plato's time there was a pantheon of gods. Worshipping these gods was a tradition as well as a civic duty. However, the notion of believing in them, in the way that Christians say you should believe in their God, was not so important. The idea that good religion demanded assent to an intellectual proposition ("I believe this is true.") wasn't part of the practice.

Lots of intellectuals in those days discussed whether the gods were real, or fantasy, etc. As long as they didn't make trouble in the polis, they could think what they wanted.

If you recall Plato's Symposium, you'll remember that each speaker is free to make up his own version of the gods. One of them says that there are two Aphrodites, for example. Each of them has a very different view of Eros; Socrates even says Eros isn't really a god.

In the Phaedrus, the title character asks Socrates if he believes in the myths about the gods. Socrates answers, in effect, that he doesn't care. He uses the myths for what they teach him about himself. In those days (and in early Bible times) people were still comfortable with the idea of mythical truth being of a different kind from empirical truth.

So Plato could posit the existence of a single God, the One, or the Form of the Good, and not get in any trouble at all. As far as I know he never announced that Zeus didn't exist, but he wasn't interested in that kind of created, finite god at all.

This is a key point in discussions on this forum. The gods of the Greek pantheon are of a fundamentally different conception from Plato's or Augustine's God. It's very like the difference, in most kinds of Hinduism, between Brahman, the uncreated ground of being, and Shiva, a created temporal god.
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30-01-2018, 02:55 AM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 10:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 09:25 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good.

God is Bob, Bob is God. All is Slack. ... Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5...ct2gG5sqhA
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30-01-2018, 09:41 AM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(29-01-2018 07:01 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 06:43 PM)brunumb Wrote:  You don't have to believe it to have an opinion. That aside, it was meant as an out there question for anyone.

The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good. So for that tradition, your question is kind of like asking, "What if the Good wasn't good?"

Christians who follow Augustine, and many others, follow this tradition. In this view, God is completely non-tyrannical and the practice of "obeying" him is just doing what is best for oneself and for the world.

Of course there is another way of thinking, in which God is seen as a human-like tyrant who makes demands of us. This is what William Blake called "Nobodaddy."

God is "Good" eh? The biblical god reminds me of prison warden, Struther Martin being so "good" in the Cool Hand Luke, "wish you'd stop being so good to me" scene.




Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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30-01-2018, 10:02 AM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
Garbage questions. They assume facts not in evidence and place the burden of proof on others instead of where it belongs.

(28-01-2018 12:09 PM)ChurchofChristerToAtheist Wrote:  What is my best way to answer these questions?

1. Is there real objective right or wrong, good or evil? (yes or no)

IMO, no. It is subjective but this is a bit of a loaded question and without more context, pretty much useless.

(28-01-2018 12:09 PM)ChurchofChristerToAtheist Wrote:  2. Does anyone have a real obligation to do or not do anything? (yes or no)

Too vague. I have no choice whether I am hungry or thirsty nor do I have any control over whether I have to pee.

(28-01-2018 12:09 PM)ChurchofChristerToAtheist Wrote:  3. The evil that warrants the deduction that God does not exist is a mere subjective evil (yes or no)
4. The evil that warrants the deduction that God does not exist is a real objective evil (yes or no)

First provide evidence the supernatural is even possible, then provide evidence that that supernatural has a conscious being associated with it, then provide evidence that that being even is aware of us (or you), then establish that the said being even gives a rat's ass about us (or you), then demonstrate that this being cares about our (or your) well being to the point where we should care what it thinks.

And an ancient book is about as good a reason to believe in Jeebus as reading the Iliad is to thinking that the cyclops is real. Nonsense reasons.

These two questions are a false dichotomy. It assumes that the being in question (a) exists, (b) cares about you © has your best interests in mind, (d) is the good guy.


(28-01-2018 12:09 PM)ChurchofChristerToAtheist Wrote:  5. The evil that warrants the deduction that God does not exist is a …. (check all appropriate answers)
a. Violation of Civil Law
b. Violation of International Law
c. Violation of an individual human being’s opinion
d. Violation of the opinion of the majority of people in a given society
e. Violation of God’s Law
f. Violation of something else (Explain)

Again, they need to demonstrate that there is even a deity that would care about this. However, to speak their language, I would point to the laws of man that are in conflict with what the bible says. Such as slavery, polygamy, genocide, and rape.

For example, both (a) and (b) have laws that are in violation with the bible. International law prohibits genocide. The bible does not and even sanctifies it with respect to the Jews. Selection © is irrelevant as Jesus even advocates thought crime (see Mat 5:21-22 and 27-28) so a human being's opinion doesn't matter. Additionally, the times that god (or satan as it says) renders a person incapable of thought of their own shows that opinions are only relevant when it suits the author of the story. Part (d) assumes might makes right. A majority of the countries for the longest time had no problem with slavery. Did that make it right? Part (e) is useless because why the hell should I care until a god has even been sufficiently demonstrated to be possible and even then, why should I care if I find it's desired morally incompatible with my own set or morals? Part (f) is just a distractor.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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30-01-2018, 04:25 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(30-01-2018 09:41 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(29-01-2018 07:01 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The standard definition of God, since the time of Plato, is that God is the Good. So for that tradition, your question is kind of like asking, "What if the Good wasn't good?"

Christians who follow Augustine, and many others, follow this tradition. In this view, God is completely non-tyrannical and the practice of "obeying" him is just doing what is best for oneself and for the world.

Of course there is another way of thinking, in which God is seen as a human-like tyrant who makes demands of us. This is what William Blake called "Nobodaddy."

God is "Good" eh? The biblical god reminds me of prison warden, Struther Martin being so "good" in the Cool Hand Luke, "wish you'd stop being so good to me" scene.




When you think of the arguments by Socrates and others that led up to the idea of God as the Good, which of them do you find unbelievable?

Can you recommend a book which analyzes and argues against their conclusions? None of the famous atheist books address this.

Thanks.
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30-01-2018, 09:35 PM
RE: Need help with these questions from a Church of Christer
(28-01-2018 08:26 PM)ChurchofChristerToAtheist Wrote:  Do you want to know the name of the Church of Christ preacher that I am having a debate with and his phone number?

Posting that type of information is generally frowned upon, so I would caution you not to do that.

However, feel free to invite the person here. Evil_monster

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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