Need some help Please
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18-04-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Need some help Please
Prayer works in the same way placebo works. Prayer, not surprisingly, has the same health benefits as meditation. Placebo effect is real but technology is much more reliably effective. And intercessory prayer on behalf of others is like the placebo effect once-removed, it don't work that way.

#sigh
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18-04-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Need some help Please
It is almost like a circle jerk of confirmation bias. There are NO proper specific references to any actual studies, and that is very telling.

The person responsible for much of the article is "Dr. Koenig — director of Duke’s Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health and the author of several authoritative books on faith and healing " What does that tell you?

Also "Tom Knox, a one-time atheist who became a regular worshipper after doing in-depth study of the medical benefits of faith." That is a laughable reference, where did he enter into the picture, is he an associate of Koenig, a convert? He sounds like the Kirk Cameron equivalent to this guys Ray Comfort.

Was there ANY attempt to balance the article with an alternative viewpoint, nope, the entire thing is preachy, more like an infomercial than an attempt at journalism.

As has been mentioned before, there has been only one attempt that I am aware of to run a proper study on prayer and healing, sponsored by the Templeton Foundation, and the result was not good for religion, it is to their credit that they were committed enough to release the results even though it was not what they were hoping for.

And they end like this "Concluded Knox: “Atheists can sneer at faith all they like, but they can’t assume science is on their side.”"

Well, they can certainly assume SCIENTISTS are on the same side (reality) because about 93% of the American academy of sciences are not religious, would that be the case if scientific studies actually supported the case for religion as they are so quick to claim?

There's your rebuttal right there.
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18-04-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: Need some help Please
(18-04-2017 04:46 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  
Quote:For the devout, there never has been any question that prayer has the power to heal.
Sounds like we all need some "devout" praying friends in case we ever fall ill with cancer or involved in a near terminal railroad crossing accident.
One could conclude their prayers apparently have always delivered them the DESIRED result. Let there be NO question that effective, 100% healing has always been the outcome experienced by those devout pray-ers!
Praise JesusAngel.

Gimme a break on this fake news. What a diaper load of unsupported statistics this Newsmax Health article contains. If it's on the internet, and supports your cause it must be true?
Well, for what it's worth, my late prior wife had close family and friends who were widely regarded as effective "intercessory prayer warriors". (Just the imagery there tells you what their style of rationalization for unanswered prayer was: the forces of evil must be battled with to break through resistance to answered prayer; if you don't get answers you don't have experienced enough "warriors" or there is something in your life "giving ground to the devil"). Anyway, these people held vigils, prayed for hours on end, for years, and she just got worse, and ultimately died. I am not aware that any of them lost their faith (or even questioned their own faith, particularly) just because all these gyrations produced the opposite of what they were supposed to produce.

Christianity is not about results or accountability, it is about posturing and process.

Routinely, if you experience some clusterfuck or other, they just make excuses. One of which is along the lines, that god never promised us ease. And yet after all these years, the Bill Gaither Trio still sings in dulcet tones in my memory,
Quote:If He keeps on blessing and blessing
If he keeps on pouring it on
If His love just keeps on getting richer
If He keeps on giving a song
If my cup gets fuller and fuller
If my prayers keep on getting through
If it keeps getting better and better
Oh Lord, I don't know what I'm gonna do
And yet they'll tell you with a straight face when they encounter something other than this faux joyfulness, that "god hath not promised peace without pain, joy without sorrow, flower-strewn pathways all our life thru".

Near as I could tell it was all a shared fantasy that everything was hunky-dory and perfect at all times, with no basis in actual reality.
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18-04-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Need some help Please
(17-04-2017 11:56 PM)psybj Wrote:  This was referenced on a site I visit too much. Is inhabited by 1000 rabid believers and me. (surprised they haven't burned my house yet) As the board atheist they fire at me and I respond that there is no evidence that prayer does anything, nor is there any evidence of any god.

Please give me some help responding to this in a way that simpletons cannot refute if possible.

http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/p...id/635623/

Thanks in advance. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

There have been a few studies on power of prayer and medical healing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

This study was the biggest (1800 patients) and best done to date. No healing attributed to prayer could be found.

And of course we have over several decades had many cases of people allowing their children to die from preventable medical issues, trying to rely on prayer. Try googling "faith healing kills children" for more.

If indeed prayer cured illnesses, that would show up in medical studies of that phenomena, and we would see many studies done to pound that point home to a doubting world. The fact that we don't see a steady stream of such successful studies in reputable journals is a clue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...7DA.f02t03
Meta studies of such studies of prayer and medical treatment don't seem to show evidence of prayer being effective.

Googling to track such studies down, and making a list is probably the only way to go.

Mark 16, and James 5 are the two texts that Christians lean on to claim that prayer can heal the ill. Good luck with your war on irrationality.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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18-04-2017, 04:00 PM
RE: Need some help Please
Quote:Christianity is not about results or accountability, it is about posturing and process.
Awesome Mordant, in this context!

You have to be odd to be #1.
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18-04-2017, 04:23 PM
RE: Need some help Please
Ask them why God hates amputees so much that he won't heal them.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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18-04-2017, 04:44 PM
RE: Need some help Please
If prayer works so well, why go to the doctor? After all both Jesus and later the disciples apparently had the power. Lines round the block to get healed according to the ultimate authority, the Bible. So obviously the modern day guys just suck at prayer then?

Can any of them name a single faith healer who can achieve verifiable success at the rate of a GP? Or even an intern?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-04-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: Need some help Please
(18-04-2017 04:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  If prayer works so well, why go to the doctor? After all both Jesus and later the disciples apparently had the power. Lines round the block to get healed according to the ultimate authority, the Bible. So obviously the modern day guys just suck at prayer then?

Can any of them name a single faith healer who can achieve verifiable success at the rate of a GP? Or even an intern?
I have always said, whether it's physical healing, or real help with personal pain of any kind, if the church really had something of undeniable value, people would be lined up for blocks to get in. Or at least that'd be the case if it SUDDENLY NOW had something of real value. If it had possessed that all along, the world would be a FAR better place than it is, and we'd be living in some sort of utopia, after 2000 years of Christian wonderfulness.

REAL answers produce dramatic results. You can't argue with actual success.

Instead, Christians (for example) divorce at about the same (if not somewhat higher) rate than the general populace. They are overrepresented in prison populations relative to the irreligious. They have the same human problems / scandals / moral failures as everyone else. They sicken and die exactly as much as anyone else. They grieve just like everyone else ... if anything they have more to grieve about than others when what they are grieving is some form of bad stuff happening to good people, because their ideology says that god blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked.

For all their campfire stories, they have no more quality of life than anyone else.

Apart from all that, after 2000 years of evangelism (and inquisitions and crusades), Christianity, even professing cultural Christianity, represents but one third of the world population. Not much penetration rate to show for a compelling value proposition.
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18-04-2017, 11:26 PM
RE: Need some help Please
(18-04-2017 05:37 PM)mordant Wrote:  if anything they have more to grieve about than others when what they are grieving is some form of bad stuff happening to good people, because their ideology says that god blesses the righteous and confounds the wicked.

Actually the ideology is contradictory. Either a. You must have done something to deserve it or b. You didn't deserve it but it shows God's glory so shut up and be shafted you ungrateful motherfucker. Of course if you are rich, happy and healthy then you deserve it and God is with you.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-04-2017, 11:59 PM
RE: Need some help Please
Ask them why their god is so powerless it seeks and takes direction from people less informed than it is.
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