Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
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11-01-2015, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2015 01:02 PM by SajaaK.)
Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
Inc wall of text, typos included:

So my mother asked me today if I believed the rapture would happen, I plainly told her no, and that I didn't believe in any of the bible nonsense. She asked me why, and I stated that the bible wasn't a reliable text and that many events (which she told me she believed literally) have no evidence that they'd ever occurred.

I tried explaining to her that rock layers would not form the way they do if there had been a global flood. That fossils would not be found in specific layers, rather than jumbled up had there been a flood.

She denied all of this. She claims that scientists were wrong and that we could never understand how a global flood would work (lol). I then asked her for the evidence that backed her belief, and she claimed that Jesus had been a real person who did real miracles. I told her that I denied this, that Jesus may have existed as a real man (or more than one person claiming to be a prophet) but there was little historical documentation of his existence outside of the bible, and there were never any miracle workings.

I then told her that there was no evidence for the slaughtering by Horus (btw she said it was Heron, doesn't even know her own bible >.>), the raising of the dead in Jerusalem (funny how no one wrote about that eh?), and that the authorship and the agenda behind the bible was questionable. Of course she claimed that there was evidence for the slaughtering, of the dead, of Jesus, of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt, etc.

Even as she then blatantly told me that she had true evidence, she failed to produce it, simply saying that I would have to travel to Israel to see it.

I then decided to make a jump in our conversation, and asked her if she though evolution was true, and of course she said no, though she claims she had studied it. When I asked her if she then understood how evolution works, she says "There are several types of evolution, the Big Bang and the species one. Scientists 'believe' that a fish turned into a dog which then turned into an ape and then into us. I don't think we came from apes or dogs or fish. There is NO evidence of it."

It was all I could do to keep from face-palming right there. I went on to tell her that 1. the Big Bang had nothing to do with evolution and was a completely separate theory and that 2. evolution does not describe the rise of life, but rather abiogenesis would be the answer there, and finally 3. EVOLUTION TAKES A FOKING LONG TIME. YA WONT GET A DAMN FISH GIVING BIRTH TO A DAMN DOG AND OF COURSE WE'RE FOKING APES. Of course I was sensible enough not to say that, but I explained that evolution effectively details speciation, and that it takes a very long time for cumulative changes to have something like a fish 'turn' into a dog, with many many many steps along the way, each step, or generation, not looking any different than the other or being a different species, but as time goes one, the changes start to become noticeable, and eventually breeding can no longer occur between the original species and the new one. Thus a new species.

Suffice to say the debate started to get heated (apparently because I denied her belief and tried to present the evidence of mine I was attacking her). I told her about the transitional fossils we've found, carbon dating, etc, and of course the entire time she claimed my 'evidence' wasn't true and that I was taking it up on faith to believe in it.

I eventually threw up my hands and told her she was choosing to be willfully ignorant and was essentially sticking her fingers in her ears and yelling "LALALALALA not real LALALALALA." She got upset at me because I'm 21 and she's 50, therefore she's right Laugh out load


So yeah...it was a fairly brainless debate and she wasn't willing to listen to what I had to say, nor did she think I knew anything about what she had to say and assumed I was ignoring her. My mind is a bit fuzzled now for even trying to reason with her.

So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

TL;DR halp me debate with my brickheaded Christian mom.

Thanks a bunch~
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11-01-2015, 03:12 PM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(11-01-2015 12:57 PM)SajaaK Wrote:  So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

OK:

0) Don't. Your mom's pretty clearly in denial. Arguing with that is like beating your head against a wall. All you'll do is frustrate yourself. If it's unavoidable, let her debate at you and give short reasons why you don't believe her points. Try to phrase it as "I don't believe X because..." rather than "X is wrong because..." The latter is an attack on her beliefs and will make her more defensive, more determined to prove you wrong.

1) There aren't many. Your mom's almost certainly going to bring fish-dog-ape-man silliness up at which point any simple explanations go out the window. Ignore evolution for the moment. It's a complicate subject that is only peripheral to your discussion.

2) There's some decent stuff in The Library. Beware of Orangutang.

Coles notes version: Jesus was a Jewish messiah, or claimed to be. He was here to save Israel, not you or me. His career came to an end when the Romans strapped him to a stick and left him to wither in the sun. He wasn't accepted by the Jewish community because he was viewed as a failure as a Messiah, even before he got himself killed. He wasn't accepted by anybody else because it involved giving up bacon and chopping pieces off your dick. The only "true" Christians, the church of Jesus-James-Peter, was a tiny non-started that perished in the Roman-Jewish war ~60 AD.

But a funny thing happened on the road to Damascus. Saul of Tarsus (aka Paul the apostle) has a vision, converts and starts evangelizing to the gentiles. He takes the original teachings and strips them of their OT rules, making them much more appealing to the Romans and Greeks. Pauline Christianity takes off amongst the very people that Jesus was supposed to save Israel from. The whole mess gets reinterpreted by a menagerie of early church theologians, Councils and whatnot until it no longer has any basis in anything Jesus ever intended.

3) The global flood just plain doesn't work.
  • The energy from simply dropping the rain is enough to sterilize the planet.
  • The Ark is structurally impossible.
  • The single pair of animals would have generated a population bottleneck that would have doomed the majority of species.
  • None of them would have had a damned thing to eat as all the terrestrial plants would have been submerged by ~5 km of water for half a year and are deader than dreams. And that's the herbivores.
  • WTF do the carnivores eat? One of the two gazelles? Bye-bye species.
  • Most aquatic species are screwed on account of trying to live in brackish water.
  • It's a bit of a long walk back to Australia, Madagascar, the Americas. The animals might get their feet wet along the way. And there's no rations on this hike.
  • The ice caps would have floated free of Greenland and Antarctica.
  • Thick, coarse sedimentary layers should have been left in every ocean basin and they just aren't there.
  • The Grand Canyon and similar sedimentary units should not contain layers of marine limestone or desert sandstone if they'd been dumped by a flood.
Those are just the highlights

4) Don't. Little point in it. If needed, defend your own position with the minimum necessary effort. Tell her you'd rather not talk about it since she only gets worked up about it.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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11-01-2015, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2015 06:35 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(11-01-2015 12:57 PM)SajaaK Wrote:  Inc wall of text, typos included:

So my mother asked me today if I believed the rapture would happen, I plainly told her no, and that I didn't believe in any of the bible nonsense. She asked me why, and I stated that the bible wasn't a reliable text and that many events (which she told me she believed literally) have no evidence that they'd ever occurred.

I tried explaining to her that rock layers would not form the way they do if there had been a global flood. That fossils would not be found in specific layers, rather than jumbled up had there been a flood.

She denied all of this. She claims that scientists were wrong and that we could never understand how a global flood would work (lol). I then asked her for the evidence that backed her belief, and she claimed that Jesus had been a real person who did real miracles. I told her that I denied this, that Jesus may have existed as a real man (or more than one person claiming to be a prophet) but there was little historical documentation of his existence outside of the bible, and there were never any miracle workings.

I then told her that there was no evidence for the slaughtering by Horus (btw she said it was Heron, doesn't even know her own bible >.>), the raising of the dead in Jerusalem (funny how no one wrote about that eh?), and that the authorship and the agenda behind the bible was questionable. Of course she claimed that there was evidence for the slaughtering, of the dead, of Jesus, of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt, etc.

Even as she then blatantly told me that she had true evidence, she failed to produce it, simply saying that I would have to travel to Israel to see it.

I then decided to make a jump in our conversation, and asked her if she though evolution was true, and of course she said no, though she claims she had studied it. When I asked her if she then understood how evolution works, she says "There are several types of evolution, the Big Bang and the species one. Scientists 'believe' that a fish turned into a dog which then turned into an ape and then into us. I don't think we came from apes or dogs or fish. There is NO evidence of it."

It was all I could do to keep from face-palming right there. I went on to tell her that 1. the Big Bang had nothing to do with evolution and was a completely separate theory and that 2. evolution does not describe the rise of life, but rather abiogenesis would be the answer there, and finally 3. EVOLUTION TAKES A FOKING LONG TIME. YA WONT GET A DAMN FISH GIVING BIRTH TO A DAMN DOG AND OF COURSE WE'RE FOKING APES. Of course I was sensible enough not to say that, but I explained that evolution effectively details speciation, and that it takes a very long time for cumulative changes to have something like a fish 'turn' into a dog, with many many many steps along the way, each step, or generation, not looking any different than the other or being a different species, but as time goes one, the changes start to become noticeable, and eventually breeding can no longer occur between the original species and the new one. Thus a new species.

Suffice to say the debate started to get heated (apparently because I denied her belief and tried to present the evidence of mine I was attacking her). I told her about the transitional fossils we've found, carbon dating, etc, and of course the entire time she claimed my 'evidence' wasn't true and that I was taking it up on faith to believe in it.

I eventually threw up my hands and told her she was choosing to be willfully ignorant and was essentially sticking her fingers in her ears and yelling "LALALALALA not real LALALALALA." She got upset at me because I'm 21 and she's 50, therefore she's right Laugh out load


So yeah...it was a fairly brainless debate and she wasn't willing to listen to what I had to say, nor did she think I knew anything about what she had to say and assumed I was ignoring her. My mind is a bit fuzzled now for even trying to reason with her.

So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

TL;DR halp me debate with my brickheaded Christian mom.

Thanks a bunch~

1. A simple way of explaining evolution.

If the world was created and all of its inhabitants at once, there wouldn't be layers of fossils, or transitional fossils either. Also we wouldnt have vestigial organs and bone formations that are evidence of our fish like ancestors. More here:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674792

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674797

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674798

https://ogremk5.wordpress.com/2011/05/23...er-review/

http://ncse.com/evolution/education/defi...tific-work

http://vialogue.wordpress.com/2012/05/06...es-review/

http://ideonexus.com/2012/02/12/101-reas...oftheEarth

http://io9.com/the-most-unfortunate-desi...1518242787



2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ.

Here

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674804

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674839

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674847

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674851

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674857

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/jesus.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/kimball.htm

3. Models for a global flood,

here

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674871



4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

Xtianity is based on the belief that jesus is the son of god, and died for our sins, thus fulfilling the incarnation and atonement theory.

Problem is there exists ZERO evidence for jesus, and more importantly, NO ONE who EVER wrote of jesus, knew him. Thus the whole religion is based on myth and hearsay.


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674873

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674774

Hope this helps.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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11-01-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(11-01-2015 03:12 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(11-01-2015 12:57 PM)SajaaK Wrote:  So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

OK:

0) Don't. Your mom's pretty clearly in denial. Arguing with that is like beating your head against a wall. All you'll do is frustrate yourself. If it's unavoidable, let her debate at you and give short reasons why you don't believe her points. Try to phrase it as "I don't believe X because..." rather than "X is wrong because..." The latter is an attack on her beliefs and will make her more defensive, more determined to prove you wrong.

1) There aren't many. Your mom's almost certainly going to bring fish-dog-ape-man silliness up at which point any simple explanations go out the window. Ignore evolution for the moment. It's a complicate subject that is only peripheral to your discussion.

2) There's some decent stuff in The Library. Beware of Orangutang.

Coles notes version: Jesus was a Jewish messiah, or claimed to be. He was here to save Israel, not you or me. His career came to an end when the Romans strapped him to a stick and left him to wither in the sun. He wasn't accepted by the Jewish community because he was viewed as a failure as a Messiah, even before he got himself killed. He wasn't accepted by anybody else because it involved giving up bacon and chopping pieces off your dick. The only "true" Christians, the church of Jesus-James-Peter, was a tiny non-started that perished in the Roman-Jewish war ~60 AD.

But a funny thing happened on the road to Damascus. Saul of Tarsus (aka Paul the apostle) has a vision, converts and starts evangelizing to the gentiles. He takes the original teachings and strips them of their OT rules, making them much more appealing to the Romans and Greeks. Pauline Christianity takes off amongst the very people that Jesus was supposed to save Israel from. The whole mess gets reinterpreted by a menagerie of early church theologians, Councils and whatnot until it no longer has any basis in anything Jesus ever intended.

3) The global flood just plain doesn't work.
  • The energy from simply dropping the rain is enough to sterilize the planet.
  • The Ark is structurally impossible.
  • The single pair of animals would have generated a population bottleneck that would have doomed the majority of species.
  • None of them would have had a damned thing to eat as all the terrestrial plants would have been submerged by ~5 km of water for half a year and are deader than dreams. And that's the herbivores.
  • WTF do the carnivores eat? One of the two gazelles? Bye-bye species.
  • Most aquatic species are screwed on account of trying to live in brackish water.
  • It's a bit of a long walk back to Australia, Madagascar, the Americas. The animals might get their feet wet along the way. And there's no rations on this hike.
  • The ice caps would have floated free of Greenland and Antarctica.
  • Thick, coarse sedimentary layers should have been left in every ocean basin and they just aren't there.
  • The Grand Canyon and similar sedimentary units should not contain layers of marine limestone or desert sandstone if they'd been dumped by a flood.
Those are just the highlights

4) Don't. Little point in it. If needed, defend your own position with the minimum necessary effort. Tell her you'd rather not talk about it since she only gets worked up about it.

Brilliant and concise but the feather in the cap is this line “He wasn’t accepted by anybody else because it involved giving up bacon and chopping pieces off your dick." Laugh out load

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-01-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(11-01-2015 12:57 PM)SajaaK Wrote:  Inc wall of text, typos included:

So my mother asked me today if I believed the rapture would happen, I plainly told her no, and that I didn't believe in any of the bible nonsense. She asked me why, and I stated that the bible wasn't a reliable text and that many events (which she told me she believed literally) have no evidence that they'd ever occurred.

I tried explaining to her that rock layers would not form the way they do if there had been a global flood. That fossils would not be found in specific layers, rather than jumbled up had there been a flood.

She denied all of this. She claims that scientists were wrong and that we could never understand how a global flood would work (lol). I then asked her for the evidence that backed her belief, and she claimed that Jesus had been a real person who did real miracles. I told her that I denied this, that Jesus may have existed as a real man (or more than one person claiming to be a prophet) but there was little historical documentation of his existence outside of the bible, and there were never any miracle workings.

I then told her that there was no evidence for the slaughtering by Horus (btw she said it was Heron, doesn't even know her own bible >.>), the raising of the dead in Jerusalem (funny how no one wrote about that eh?), and that the authorship and the agenda behind the bible was questionable. Of course she claimed that there was evidence for the slaughtering, of the dead, of Jesus, of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt, etc.

Even as she then blatantly told me that she had true evidence, she failed to produce it, simply saying that I would have to travel to Israel to see it.

I then decided to make a jump in our conversation, and asked her if she though evolution was true, and of course she said no, though she claims she had studied it. When I asked her if she then understood how evolution works, she says "There are several types of evolution, the Big Bang and the species one. Scientists 'believe' that a fish turned into a dog which then turned into an ape and then into us. I don't think we came from apes or dogs or fish. There is NO evidence of it."

It was all I could do to keep from face-palming right there. I went on to tell her that 1. the Big Bang had nothing to do with evolution and was a completely separate theory and that 2. evolution does not describe the rise of life, but rather abiogenesis would be the answer there, and finally 3. EVOLUTION TAKES A FOKING LONG TIME. YA WONT GET A DAMN FISH GIVING BIRTH TO A DAMN DOG AND OF COURSE WE'RE FOKING APES. Of course I was sensible enough not to say that, but I explained that evolution effectively details speciation, and that it takes a very long time for cumulative changes to have something like a fish 'turn' into a dog, with many many many steps along the way, each step, or generation, not looking any different than the other or being a different species, but as time goes one, the changes start to become noticeable, and eventually breeding can no longer occur between the original species and the new one. Thus a new species.

Suffice to say the debate started to get heated (apparently because I denied her belief and tried to present the evidence of mine I was attacking her). I told her about the transitional fossils we've found, carbon dating, etc, and of course the entire time she claimed my 'evidence' wasn't true and that I was taking it up on faith to believe in it.

I eventually threw up my hands and told her she was choosing to be willfully ignorant and was essentially sticking her fingers in her ears and yelling "LALALALALA not real LALALALALA." She got upset at me because I'm 21 and she's 50, therefore she's right Laugh out load


So yeah...it was a fairly brainless debate and she wasn't willing to listen to what I had to say, nor did she think I knew anything about what she had to say and assumed I was ignoring her. My mind is a bit fuzzled now for even trying to reason with her.

So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

TL;DR halp me debate with my brickheaded Christian mom.

Thanks a bunch~

I agree with Paleophyte, your mom will just get upset about rattling her naive beliefs, you won't convince her.

My mom is much the same way, but she's in her 70's. Her defense of her faith boils down to her feeling god's presence during music.

If I tried to debunk her beliefs, much of it would go completely over her head, she would just say I need Jesus and I need to read my bible.

I've had some pretty acerbic conversations with her, posted some things on Facebook that really upset her and then she un-friended me. Laugh out load

So we don't talk about god anymore, and she knows it's not going to lead to a place she'll enjoy, so she doesn't bring the subject up anymore.

I figure it's best to be casually dismissive with a quip such as "Can we go see that talking snake at the zoo? Oh that's right, there aren't any."

I figured she's old and feeling the effects of age and her mortality is ebbing, she can believe whatever she wants that comforts her. She no longer deserves any more consideration of her beliefs than a cute quip at the expense of her religion.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
Let. It. Go. Your Mom is in denial and afraid to look at evidence due to a lifetime of conditioning and not wanting to disturb a belief system that she feels works for her.

Just say, without condescension, "Mom, I love you dearly. You believe or don't believe what you choose to. I will respect that, and I'm sure you'll respect what I choose to believe, or not believe. I have reasons for what I believe, but I don't think you really want to hear my reasons. Nor do you need to. You just need to know that I'll always be your son and you'll always be my Mom."

With women it's nearly always about something other than what they're going on about. Your mother is no different. She really just wants to know you still love and respect her, despite not believing as she does. And she will need to be told repeatedly before it sinks in. If she plays the disrespect card, remind her that disagreement is not disrespect. Refuse to argue about it. Just keep coming back to how much you love and care about her, and be attentive on her birthday and Mother's Day, etc., and do her an occasional random kindness. That is what she really is concerned about ... or if not, it should be. If she's one of those who wants you to be a little carbon copy of her, well, she'll learn to live with reality eventually. Just keep loving her. Be kind. Be gentle.
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21-01-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
I'm late to the game but on the evolution - just talk about viruses. How it adapts, evolves and new viruses spring up in its place. Or how bacteria can become antibiotic resistant.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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21-01-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(21-01-2015 04:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'm late to the game but on the evolution - just talk about viruses. How it adapts, evolves and new viruses spring up in its place. Or how bacteria can become antibiotic resistant.

Actually, antibiotic resistance in bacteria isn't the best example. Many bacteria already had antibiotic resistance because until recently most antibiotics were derived from natural sources. The bacteria have a very neat trick of transferring plasmids between utterly unrelated strains. It's still evolution but the cretinists can muddy the waters and cry "Adaptation!"

Nylonase is a nice example.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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25-01-2015, 12:57 AM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
(11-01-2015 12:57 PM)SajaaK Wrote:  Inc wall of text, typos included:

So my mother asked me today if I believed the rapture would happen, I plainly told her no, and that I didn't believe in any of the bible nonsense. She asked me why, and I stated that the bible wasn't a reliable text and that many events (which she told me she believed literally) have no evidence that they'd ever occurred.

I tried explaining to her that rock layers would not form the way they do if there had been a global flood. That fossils would not be found in specific layers, rather than jumbled up had there been a flood.

She denied all of this. She claims that scientists were wrong and that we could never understand how a global flood would work (lol). I then asked her for the evidence that backed her belief, and she claimed that Jesus had been a real person who did real miracles. I told her that I denied this, that Jesus may have existed as a real man (or more than one person claiming to be a prophet) but there was little historical documentation of his existence outside of the bible, and there were never any miracle workings.

I then told her that there was no evidence for the slaughtering by Horus (btw she said it was Heron, doesn't even know her own bible >.>), the raising of the dead in Jerusalem (funny how no one wrote about that eh?), and that the authorship and the agenda behind the bible was questionable. Of course she claimed that there was evidence for the slaughtering, of the dead, of Jesus, of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt, etc.

Even as she then blatantly told me that she had true evidence, she failed to produce it, simply saying that I would have to travel to Israel to see it.

I then decided to make a jump in our conversation, and asked her if she though evolution was true, and of course she said no, though she claims she had studied it. When I asked her if she then understood how evolution works, she says "There are several types of evolution, the Big Bang and the species one. Scientists 'believe' that a fish turned into a dog which then turned into an ape and then into us. I don't think we came from apes or dogs or fish. There is NO evidence of it."

It was all I could do to keep from face-palming right there. I went on to tell her that 1. the Big Bang had nothing to do with evolution and was a completely separate theory and that 2. evolution does not describe the rise of life, but rather abiogenesis would be the answer there, and finally 3. EVOLUTION TAKES A FOKING LONG TIME. YA WONT GET A DAMN FISH GIVING BIRTH TO A DAMN DOG AND OF COURSE WE'RE FOKING APES. Of course I was sensible enough not to say that, but I explained that evolution effectively details speciation, and that it takes a very long time for cumulative changes to have something like a fish 'turn' into a dog, with many many many steps along the way, each step, or generation, not looking any different than the other or being a different species, but as time goes one, the changes start to become noticeable, and eventually breeding can no longer occur between the original species and the new one. Thus a new species.

Suffice to say the debate started to get heated (apparently because I denied her belief and tried to present the evidence of mine I was attacking her). I told her about the transitional fossils we've found, carbon dating, etc, and of course the entire time she claimed my 'evidence' wasn't true and that I was taking it up on faith to believe in it.

I eventually threw up my hands and told her she was choosing to be willfully ignorant and was essentially sticking her fingers in her ears and yelling "LALALALALA not real LALALALALA." She got upset at me because I'm 21 and she's 50, therefore she's right Laugh out load


So yeah...it was a fairly brainless debate and she wasn't willing to listen to what I had to say, nor did she think I knew anything about what she had to say and assumed I was ignoring her. My mind is a bit fuzzled now for even trying to reason with her.

So, I have a few things that I would appreciate some help with.

1. A simple way of explaining evolution. Preferably no more than a few sentences. I think I went too far into it that I lost her at 'genetics'. (I guess a detailed explanation would be nice as well, if I could ever convince her to read it).

Also a few links to sites detailing evolution would be helpful. I already know of TalkOrigins.org and know they're excellent, but a few more should make a nice buffer. After all I'm pretty sure she'll not even give me a second glance if I only show her one 'source' (even though most articles in talkorigins have dozens of sources).

2. Historical evidence for Jesus Christ. This is more for me, because truthfully I haven't read into it very much. Of what I've read, there is little evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ ever existed, and if he did (and from what I've seen, there may have been more than 1), he was no more than a prophet. But I would like to broaden my knowledge on this subject. Once again sites and book recommendations would be appreciated.

3. Models for a global flood, how rock layers work when it comes to flood (I tried to explain this but I guess I didn't do a good enough job, and apparently geologists are wrong), and fossils in specific rock layers. I remember reading something about archaeologists using rock layers to predict where they would find a specific species, and when they did the digging, the species they had expected was there.

4. Just any other general tips on debating with a rock wall. I'm not a very strong debater, mostly because it takes a lot of willpower not to be condescending, and because I'm not the best at explaining things.

TL;DR halp me debate with my brickheaded Christian mom.

Thanks a bunch~
Forget trying to accept evidence for evolution. They won't accept it, understand it, and will fight to the death at any suggestion that Christianity is bogus. You might point out in the Bible passages that disprove the all knowing God that "inspired" the writing of the Bible.
For instance Jesus proved that he was not the Messiah in Matthew 12:40. He stated that if they wanted a sign that he was the Messiah that upon his death he would lie in the ground for three days and three nights. The Bible states that he was placed in the tomb sometime Friday late afternoon. The woman came Saturday night late just before daybreak Sunday. He was already gone from the tomb which means he was only in the tomb Friday night and Saturday night: Saturday counts as only one day. The Bible states that any prophet failing a prophecy is not a prophet, which means he could not be the Messiah.
Get a Strong's Concordance and look up Messiah as a subject found in the Bible. You will find only four entrys if my memory serves me. That means they did not place much importance in the Bible on defining, predicting a Messiah and the like.
Another error is God saying he was the beginning and the ending and in Revelations Jesus was supposed to have said he was the only God, the begining and end etc. In Leviticus bats are classified as birds, hares chew cuds etc.
Ferreting out such errors, contradictions, etc. puts Christians on the defense and you don't spend all your time trying to prove anything. Christians will lie and do anything to hang onto their beliefs. Good luck, you'll hear more on the subject from me as time goes on.
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25-01-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: Need some help cuz my mind is numb ._.
Just thought I would add that the Bible states that God said he would be the only God and that there would be no other. That leaves Jesus out as a candadate for diety. The Old Testament I would think predict, explain, set rules for the future happenings. Original sin is not explained or discussed, predictions of a coming Messiah is not clearly given and what he represents is not explained. The Old Testament has a number of passages stating that God does not regret nor does he change his mind. The New Testament has him changing the laws about food, which was a big thing in the Old Testament. There are many passages where he regret; a lot of them. He kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden, he flushes humanity down the drain except for Noah and his kin, and lots of other mentions of changing his mind and regrets. The genesis time line contradicts itself,
There many more instances of contradictions and errors. Your mother will have a tough time accomodating all of these and may begin to wonder.
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