Need the help of an expert in evolution.
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15-06-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
I asked my brother in law who IS a biochemist... Meiosis is as random as anything in the universe can be, there is a 50/50 chance of passing any bit of either chromosome.

It is random for all intents and purposes the same way a rand() function is in computer programming. Is it truely random no, but neither is shuffling in your poker game.

The organism has no control and infact any genetic data not using in gamite A is used in gamit B which is created at the exact same time and both are released/both attempt to fertilize or be fertilized.

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15-06-2013, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 03:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 03:18 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I asked my brother in law who IS a biochemist... Meiosis is as random as anything in the universe can be, there is a 50/50 chance of passing any bit of either chromosome.

It is random for all intents and purposes the same way a rand() function is in computer programming. Is it truely random no, but neither is shuffling in your poker game.

The organism has no control and infact any genetic data not using in gamite A is used in gamit B which is created at the exact same time and both are released/both attempt to fertilize or be fertilized.

Here is a visual representation of this. Note there are 23 chromosome pairs, thus there are 8,388,608 possible combinations of the 23 homologue pairs.
(Although I would not be a bit surprised if some day, they find there are forces or co-factors, or enzymes, acting which influence the polar orientation, thus making it not really random orientation).
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/00...iosis.html


BTW, we have an "expert" here on *evIlution*. I can refer you to him, if you wish. Weeping.

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15-06-2013, 10:31 PM
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 10:33 AM)TheAmazingAustralopithecus Wrote:  Well, that debate was fun. I used my own knowledge and a couple of quotes from here and another person rather helped me to end the debate. We ended up off topic and I told him so, and then I mentioned that his original point had been refuted.

His reply?

"No you didn't."

And there was nothing substantial after that.

Theists, gotta love 'em.

Anyway, thanks for replies Smile.

You will never - not ever - convince a christian of your point during or directly after a debate. In other words, you will not outright win a debate....not ever. No atheist ever has...and no Atheist ever will - and the same hold true for Christians. But...what an Atheist can do during the course of a debate with a Christian is plant intellectual seeds (ideas) that only fully take root well after the debate is over and the Christian must reconcile the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing with physical reality.

It is during these times, when the Christian is alone and thinking and trying to reconcile the BS of his religion against reality that the truth is no longer denied, and eventually accepted. When I realized how this process worked, I gladly lost debates in the eyes of Christians for just the single opportunity to inject cognitive dissonance into the minds of one of the debaters - or maybe even a bystander/observer. In other words, during a debate I quickly realized who might be reached with the truth and how, then calmly and methodically injected the truth and created cognitive dissonance, and then let the listener go off and reconcile the dissonance and do the rest of the work themselves.

I've had Christians thump on their chests and laugh in my face thinking they were winning a debate against me and they never realized that they were not even the real target of my debate - it was a bystander who was actually capable of listening to the truth. Strange, huh?

Hope this helps.
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15-06-2013, 10:48 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 11:04 PM by kim.)
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 10:31 PM)Julius Wrote:  You will never - not ever - convince a christian of your point during or directly after a debate.

Agree. De-conversion is a complex process.




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15-06-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 03:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Although I would not be a bit surprised if some day, they find there are forces or co-factors, or enzymes, acting which influence the polar orientation, thus making it not really random orientation.

Yep, that's what I'm sayin'... Buckylicious just says it all scientific-like. Shy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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16-06-2013, 05:51 AM
Re: RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 10:31 PM)Julius Wrote:  You will never - not ever - convince a christian of your point during or directly after a debate. In other words, you will not outright win a debate....not ever. No atheist ever has...and no Atheist ever will - and the same hold true for Christians. But...what an Atheist can do during the course of a debate with a Christian is plant intellectual seeds (ideas) that only fully take root well after the debate is over and the Christian must reconcile the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing with physical reality.

It is during these times, when the Christian is alone and thinking and trying to reconcile the BS of his religion against reality that the truth is no longer denied, and eventually accepted. When I realized how this process worked, I gladly lost debates in the eyes of Christians for just the single opportunity to inject cognitive dissonance into the minds of one of the debaters - or maybe even a bystander/observer. In other words, during a debate I quickly realized who might be reached with the truth and how, then calmly and methodically injected the truth and created cognitive dissonance, and then let the listener go off and reconcile the dissonance and do the rest of the work themselves.

I've had Christians thump on their chests and laugh in my face thinking they were winning a debate against me and they never realized that they were not even the real target of my debate - it was a bystander who was actually capable of listening to the truth. Strange, huh?

Hope this helps.

Why do you think that they burned heretics at the stake in the old days? So they wouldn't "polute" a "good" Christian's faith.... They really miss the good old days... Us heretics don't.

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20-06-2013, 07:27 AM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2013 07:31 AM by TheAmazingAustralopithecus.)
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
I've possibly just started another debate on that forum concerning Stephen Meyer's new book "Darwin's Doubt" which is supposed to use the Cambrian Explosion as evidence of ID. I've found a good Jerry Coyne article explaining the explosion, but I've no doubt they'll continue with this line of thought. Sigh. They also quoted "Finding Darwin's God" or some such nonsense.

Also, the guy I talked to before tried to make a joke about how evolution must have started with "nothing + magic."


How can you be so ignorant? I can feel my blood pressure rising in annoyance at these imperfect mammalian apes.

"Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."

-Christoper Hitchens, "Letters to a Young Contrarian."
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20-06-2013, 07:42 AM
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(15-06-2013 10:31 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 10:33 AM)TheAmazingAustralopithecus Wrote:  Well, that debate was fun. I used my own knowledge and a couple of quotes from here and another person rather helped me to end the debate. We ended up off topic and I told him so, and then I mentioned that his original point had been refuted.

His reply?

"No you didn't."

And there was nothing substantial after that.

Theists, gotta love 'em.

Anyway, thanks for replies Smile.


You will never - not ever - convince a christian of your point during or directly after a debate. In other words, you will not outright win a debate....not ever. No atheist ever has...and no Atheist ever will - and the same hold true for Christians. But...what an Atheist can do during the course of a debate with a Christian is plant intellectual seeds (ideas) that only fully take root well after the debate is over and the Christian must reconcile the cognitive dissonance they are experiencing with physical reality.

It is during these times, when the Christian is alone and thinking and trying to reconcile the BS of his religion against reality that the truth is no longer denied, and eventually accepted. When I realized how this process worked, I gladly lost debates in the eyes of Christians for just the single opportunity to inject cognitive dissonance into the minds of one of the debaters - or maybe even a bystander/observer. In other words, during a debate I quickly realized who might be reached with the truth and how, then calmly and methodically injected the truth and created cognitive dissonance, and then let the listener go off and reconcile the dissonance and do the rest of the work themselves.

I've had Christians thump on their chests and laugh in my face thinking they were winning a debate against me and they never realized that they were not even the real target of my debate - it was a bystander who was actually capable of listening to the truth. Strange, huh?

Hope this helps.

Agreed. Hitchens and Dawkins and Krause and Dennit and Harris don't debate guys like these http://www.efcc.org/top-christian-apologists/ because either side thinks they will convert/de-convert the other. They debate to convince the audience. Also IRL just engaging the street preacher continually forces them to focus on you instead of spewing their hate.

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20-06-2013, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2013 08:34 AM by Stephen Charchuk.)
Re: RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
(20-06-2013 07:27 AM)TheAmazingAustralopithecus Wrote:  I've possibly just started another debate on that forum concerning Stephen Meyer's new book "Darwin's Doubt" which is supposed to use the Cambrian Explosion as evidence of ID. I've found a good Jerry Coyne article explaining the explosion, but I've no doubt they'll continue with this line of thought. Sigh. They also quoted "Finding Darwin's God" or some such nonsense.

Also, the guy I talked to before tried to make a joke about how evolution must have started with "nothing + magic."


How can you be so ignorant? I can feel my blood pressure rising in annoyance at these imperfect mammalian apes.

What most Christians believe is that Darwin was an atheist. Untrue, he was a devout Christian and felt that his book didn't violate any religious believes since, after all, it wasn't about the creation of life.

"I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone."

-Charles Darwin, writing in the foreword to "On The Origins Of Species", 1859.

As to ID don't they know by now that it is a proven fraud when its creator, Dr. Behe, had to admit under other in a court of law that he completely made up the evidence he used to "prove" it?


"nothing + magic"? Like his god? Clearly that idiot knows absolutely nothing about evolution and what it is and isn't. What you should have said to him was, "What? Are you saying that Dariwn is god now, won't you go to hell for that? Angel

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20-06-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: Need the help of an expert in evolution.
Theist are experts at ignoring facts, and then filling the gaps with faith. Science is expert at ignoring faith and filling the gaps with facts. Interesting that this theist would make up a gap or "something random" to argue against facts,.....when his faith in a god is entirely "something random", and based on thousands of years old hearsay.
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