Need thoughts and advice
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09-05-2014, 09:28 AM
Need thoughts and advice
I'm currently working on a petition to rescind an exemption to a local rule.

Without being specific the exemption allows an activity that pits one group of outdoorsmen vs another.

I'm expecting a lot of pushback from the other side. One of the possibilities is that they say that if one group can't use the area then the other can't either.

Analogy: Imagine a small sanctuary for birding and hiking where families go that also allows hunting. Incompatible uses in my view. When I try to rescind the exemption for hunting they may respond by saying that the hikers and birders shouldn't be allowed there either.

There may be many other challenges that I have't thought of but you guys might. I want to be prepared for the onslaught.

Thanks for your help.

FC

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 09:28 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I'm currently working on a petition to rescind an exemption to a local rule.

Without being specific the exemption allows an activity that pits one group of outdoorsmen vs another.

I'm expecting a lot of pushback from the other side. One of the possibilities is that they say that if one group can't use the area then the other can't either.

Analogy: Imagine a small sanctuary for birding and hiking where families go that also allows hunting. Incompatible uses in my view. When I try to rescind the exemption for hunting they may respond by saying that the hikers and birders shouldn't be allowed there either.

There may be many other challenges that I have't thought of but you guys might. I want to be prepared for the onslaught.

Thanks for your help.

FC

Doesn't 'hunting' go against the very idea of 'sanctuary'

I would contact local Sierra Club, Audobon group, etc. they might get their membership to help with support, might be able to provide guidance or even just stats to help back up what you want to do.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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09-05-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
Always consider safety to be an issue - insurance (especially for public areas) will lend gravity to the situation, no matter what.

If it is an incompatibility problem, can it be remedied with time constraints - separate but equal?

Important: is it anything to do with nazis? Shy

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09-05-2014, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2014 10:07 AM by wazzel.)
RE: Need thoughts and advice
Our wildlife areas allow hunting, but it is very controled and the hunters have to pay extra to hunt the area. Hunting could be providing enough fuding to keep it a wildlife scantuary. It also could be uses as a means to control certian populations. Unhunted deer will overpopulate an area quickly and mess things up.

Quote:Why are Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Allowed on National Wildlife Refuges?



Hunting, trapping and fishing are considered by many to be a legitimate, traditional recreational use of renewable natural resources. The National Wildlife Refuge System Administration Act of 1966, other laws, and the Fish and Wildlife Service's policy permit hunting on a national wildlife refuge when it is compatible with the purposes for which the refuge was established and acquired.

National wildlife refuges exist primarily to safeguard wildlife populations through habitat preservation. The word "refuge" includes the idea of providing a haven of safety for wildlife, and as such, hunting might seem an inconsistent use of the National Wildlife Refuge System (Refuge System). However, habitat that normally supports healthy wildlife populations produces harvestable surpluses that are a renewable resource.

As practiced on refuges, hunting, trapping and fishing do not pose a threat to the wildlife populations, and in some instances, are actually necessary for sound wildlife management. For example, deer populations will often grow too large for the refuge habitat to support. If some of the deer are not harvested, they destroy habitat for themselves and other animals and die from starvation or disease. The harvesting of wildlife on refuges is carefully regulated to ensure an equilibrium between population levels and wildlife habitat.

The decision to permit hunting, trapping and fishing on national wildlife refuges is made on a case-by-case basis that considers biological soundness, economic feasibility, effects on other refuge programs, and public demand.

http://www.fws.gov/refuges/hunting/whyallowed.html
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09-05-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
You can't have people with kids running around in an area where shots are being fired. Something has to give, it's too dangerous for people.

I would assume the activity that draws the largest group of people would win...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-05-2014, 12:02 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2014 02:05 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Need thoughts and advice
OK I'm back, thanks for responding and after reading the responses to my analogy I think it might be more beneficial to give actual details.

Biggest Picture: The Atlantic Ocean
Big picture: a 2200 square mile National Marine Sanctuary. Fishing regulations apply for season, size and bag limits.
Zoom way in: within these 2200 square miles exist 18 Sanctuary Preservation Areas (SPAs) that encompass a whopping 5 square miles of the 2200 or less than 0.3% of the total where no taking of fish is allowed.

4 of the 18 SPAs had grandfathered in the exemption to allow fishing by trolling and then release.

On one of those four, totaling 1/2 square mile, is a top site for snorkelers and divers, we conservatively estimate that yearly 30,000 people go there. This is THE place for spending the day with your family, swimming, snorkeling and scuba diving.

Zoom in even further: within the 1/2 square mile is a 320 yard long shallow ledge (15 feet deep along the top) where many of the 30,000 yearly visitors go to swim to see the fish there. Here you find 5 mooring balls that specifically say NO Fishing (that is except for trolling not mentioned). Consider

Recently we have had fishing vessels troll directly over our heads, props not 10 feet above, leaving us hugging the bottom to save our lives while they maneuver to land a fish.

We have prepared a petition to rescind the exemption for safety's sake. Knowing how rabid some of the local fishermen are (death threats were issued to a fellow outspoken activist) I expect the worst.

We will be speaking at the next Council meeting and we hope to have hundreds if not thousands of petitioners signing our letter.

The fishermen in the past have used all manners of strong arming such as the threat I mentioned plus the argument that if they can't use the area then no one should be allowed in an attempt to dissuade any change in the status quo.

So here I am, preparing for battle in front of the Advisory Council and trying to foresee counter arguments.

Play devil's advocate for me and help me with arguments for the exemption.

Sorry for the long post, lots of details play into the situation.

FC

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2014, 12:30 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
Regardless if there is a marine sancutary there or not if you had your diver down flag they should have been no where near you. If you did not shame on you. Boaters can not see below the surface. Your were taking an unnecessary risk if you did not have your diver down flag properly flown.

Now as far as you angle for the petition. If you can prove there is a danger to people swimming in the area I believe you can get it designated as a swimming area and the boats would have to stay so far off the beach. Check your local regulations. Is the area a reef far from shore that people and boats are interacting?
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09-05-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
I see.
So, it's a specific area under dispute and the fishermen feel as if they have every right ... because since they have the rest of the ocean ... they need this part, too. Because ... uh ... FISH! Dodgy

I think the petition would help the Advisory Council to make a more balanced assessment. I would make it clear that to ensure safety for all, fishing areas must be designated - seems pretty clear cut. As I said, it might be something for whoever handles the insurance for the area to be in on... they have a way of adding weight. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-05-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 12:30 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Regardless if there is a marine sancutary there or not if you had your diver down flag they should have been no where near you. If you did not shame on you. Boaters can not see below the surface. Your were taking an unnecessary risk if you did not have your diver down flag properly flown.

Now as far as you angle for the petition. If you can prove there is a danger to people swimming in the area I believe you can get it designated as a swimming area and the boats would have to stay so far off the beach. Check your local regulations. Is the area a reef far from shore that people and boats are interacting?

wazzel, I know you don't know me but I am a USCG licensed Captain, a PADI OWSI = SCUBA Instructor and one of the most by the book people you'll ever find. The diver down flag was flying and they were more or less 100 yds from our boat as required. But, seeing how there aren't any lines underwater letting a diver know when they are 101 yards away from their vessel or any lines on the surface for other boaters to see...Ohmy

This is the problem, incompatible uses for the same area.

Yes the SPA is miles offshore. If you read my second post I have explained the situation, 30,000 people a year use the area for swimming and diving while an exemption for trolling is in place.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 01:16 PM)kim Wrote:  I see.
So, it's a specific area under dispute and the fishermen feel as if they have every right ... because since they have the rest of the ocean ... they need this part, too. Because ... uh ... FISH! Dodgy

I think the petition would help the Advisory Council to make a more balanced assessment. I would make it clear that to ensure safety for all, fishing areas must be designated - seems pretty clear cut. As I said, it might be something for whoever handles the insurance for the area to be in on... they have a way of adding weight. Shy

Yes that Dodgy

I never thought about the insurance angle. Who insures the Federal government anyway? Since this is a National Marine Sanctuary I'm pretty sure there isn't any.

One of the things I have contemplated saying is "Who here want to be the one that has to make the call to the family of the victim and explain why the exemption is SUCH A GOOD IDEA?"

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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