Need thoughts and advice
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09-05-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 02:01 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I never thought about the insurance angle. Who insures the Federal government anyway? Since this is a National Marine Sanctuary I'm pretty sure there isn't any.

One of the things I have contemplated saying is "Who here want to be the one that has to make the call to the family of the victim and explain why the exemption is SUCH A GOOD IDEA?"

Go to the County Fish & Game Commission... they will be able to give you pertinent information. Federal land may indeed carry some sort of liability insurance. If someone falls into the Grand Canyon... someone is gonna ask questions about who let the idiot walk that close to the edge.
Lately, accountability is bureaucracy's best friend. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-05-2014, 03:16 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 02:15 PM)kim Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 02:01 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I never thought about the insurance angle. Who insures the Federal government anyway? Since this is a National Marine Sanctuary I'm pretty sure there isn't any.

One of the things I have contemplated saying is "Who here want to be the one that has to make the call to the family of the victim and explain why the exemption is SUCH A GOOD IDEA?"

Go to the County Fish & Game Commission... they will be able to give you pertinent information. Federal land may indeed carry some sort of liability insurance. If someone falls into the Grand Canyon... someone is gonna ask questions about who let the idiot walk that close to the edge.
Lately, accountability is bureaucracy's best friend. Shy

Interesting Kim, let me see what I can dig up. Let's say they do carry insurance, how do you see interjecting this into the dialogue?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 01:57 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 12:30 PM)wazzel Wrote:  Regardless if there is a marine sancutary there or not if you had your diver down flag they should have been no where near you. If you did not shame on you. Boaters can not see below the surface. Your were taking an unnecessary risk if you did not have your diver down flag properly flown.

Now as far as you angle for the petition. If you can prove there is a danger to people swimming in the area I believe you can get it designated as a swimming area and the boats would have to stay so far off the beach. Check your local regulations. Is the area a reef far from shore that people and boats are interacting?

wazzel, I know you don't know me but I am a USCG licensed Captain, a PADI OWSI = SCUBA Instructor and one of the most by the book people you'll ever find. The diver down flag was flying and they were more or less 100 yds from our boat as required. But, seeing how there aren't any lines underwater letting a diver know when they are 101 yards away from their vessel or any lines on the surface for other boaters to see...Ohmy

This is the problem, incompatible uses for the same area.

Yes the SPA is miles offshore. If you read my second post I have explained the situation, 30,000 people a year use the area for swimming and diving while an exemption for trolling is in place.

Sorry about that. Did not mean to be insulting. I am not a dive master but have some advanced certifications from SSI and I work in the marine construction industry. I have spent lots of time on dive boats for work and pleasure. I know the yahoos you are talking about. The do not pay attention to the dive flags at all. There has been more than one time when they ignored the flag, and our warnings to the point we had to chase them off with the vessel water cannons. It in not like you can mistake a work boat for a pleasure craft.

Why are they crossing the reef. It is not like large paligic game fish are going to be in that shallow of a water depth IIRC.

Is the area in state of federal waters? It will matter on who you need to contact.
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09-05-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 03:47 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 01:57 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  wazzel, I know you don't know me but I am a USCG licensed Captain, a PADI OWSI = SCUBA Instructor and one of the most by the book people you'll ever find. The diver down flag was flying and they were more or less 100 yds from our boat as required. But, seeing how there aren't any lines underwater letting a diver know when they are 101 yards away from their vessel or any lines on the surface for other boaters to see...Ohmy

This is the problem, incompatible uses for the same area.

Yes the SPA is miles offshore. If you read my second post I have explained the situation, 30,000 people a year use the area for swimming and diving while an exemption for trolling is in place.


Sorry about that. Did not mean to be insulting. I am not a dive master but have some advanced certifications from SSI and I work in the marine construction industry. I have spent lots of time on dive boats for work and pleasure. I know the yahoos you are talking about. The do not pay attention to the dive flags at all. There has been more than one time when they ignored the flag, and our warnings to the point we had to chase them off with the vessel water cannons. It in not like you can mistake a work boat for a pleasure craft.

Why are they crossing the reef. It is not like large paligic game fish are going to be in that shallow of a water depth IIRC.

Is the area in state of federal waters? It will matter on who you need to contact.

No problem.
They are there because the fish are there, the fish are there because it is a "no take zone" BUT the exemption allows for troll and release...it's madness. So under the guise of trolling (the definition is very open to interpretation) the target this shallow ledge where people go to dive. As long as any type of fishing is allowed in the SPA people will abuse the intent of the regs.

This particular charter captain was quoting us the regs when we challanged him, he knew exactly what he was doing. The asshole even told my wife "I saw your bubbles but you are more than 100 yards from your vessel". In other words the fish is worth morth more than her life. Evil_monster

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-05-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
Get with the other SCUBA operators and work this together, because when one of your patrons gets hurt, the first person that will be looked at is you because you are responsible for them. Even though it isn't your fault, you will be dragged thru the wringer, and your insurance companies will raise rates or drop you, etc.

Form some teams, other operators, insurance, environmental, medical, etc.


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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09-05-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(09-05-2014 07:41 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Get with the other SCUBA operators and work this together, because when one of your patrons gets hurt, the first person that will be looked at is you because you are responsible for them. Even though it isn't your fault, you will be dragged thru the wringer, and your insurance companies will raise rates or drop you, etc.

Form some teams, other operators, insurance, environmental, medical, etc.

We've approached every dive shop from Key Largo to Islamorada, all are aboard. What we're trying to do is prevent a future tragedy that is why I'm spearheading this petition.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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14-05-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
I came across this today and it made me think of you and this thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/13...13648.html


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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14-05-2014, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2014 04:17 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Need thoughts and advice
(14-05-2014 03:43 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I came across this today and it made me think of you and this thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/13...13648.html

Holy shit! That should be prosecuted at the very least as assault and battery and possibly even attempted murder! Goddamn people are fucked up.

Our petition has gone live on change.org

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-05-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
I participate in an industry work group and we covered this topic yesterday. You may want to keep an eye on this site for information. The group is working with the USCG to come up with better enforcement policies.

http://www.usgomdswg.com/index.html
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15-05-2014, 07:22 AM
RE: Need thoughts and advice
These are my prices:
Advice is free
Advice that requires thought is $20.
Advice that requires thought and has to be right is priceless.

For everything else there's Mastercard.
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