Need your help Guys
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06-01-2018, 11:22 PM
Need your help Guys
Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

I want your help about a question which puzzled me yesterday.. One of one religious minded friends asked got me in trouble yesterday while asking the question - can you prove me where did numerical 1 came from? I said it always existed then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...
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07-01-2018, 12:52 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
(06-01-2018 11:22 PM)jageh Wrote:  Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

I want your help about a question which puzzled me yesterday.. One of one religious minded friends asked got me in trouble yesterday while asking the question - can you prove me where did numerical 1 came from? I said it always existed then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...

Assigning "1" equal to the singular is a human-made concept so it's only been around as long as we have.

For every legend told and retold, a bit of messy but significant reality is ignored.
David Quammen, The Song of the Dodo
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07-01-2018, 01:07 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
Sets are a human construct.

So is god.

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07-01-2018, 05:54 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
At work.

Hello!

Did your discussion companion mean the 'Number' 1?

OR

Did your companion mean the 'Definition' of 1?

Consider

Both have realy interesting histories.

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07-01-2018, 06:32 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
(06-01-2018 11:22 PM)jageh Wrote:  Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...

Welcome.

For an entity to exist, it needs something to exist within, even it is composed of pure energy. That something is space-time.

Space-time came into being about 13.772 billion years ago when the universe came into being.

Therefore, if god exists, he/she/it came into being 13.772 billion years ago because, prior to that, there was nothing to exist within.

I need to digress at this point. I said prior to 13.772 billion years ago, above. This can't be because time, prior to this point, did not exist because space-time did not exist.

Therefore, god has not always existed because the space-time needed for god to exist within has not always existed and didn't until 13.772 billion years ago.

If the person that stated that god has always existed claims that god has always existed and therefore transcends the laws of physics, give that person a quizzical yet concerned but condescending look and walk slowly but purposefully away. People with such thoughts can claim anything they wish, however ludicrous. In response, you could claim that, in this case, the giant, flying spaghetti monster exists but we wouldn't want to lower ourselves to their level, would we?

I would have such fun with your work colleague but, I sense, you would not.

People of your work colleague's ilk are best avoided methinks.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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07-01-2018, 06:53 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
(06-01-2018 11:22 PM)jageh Wrote:  Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

I want your help about a question which puzzled me yesterday.. One of one religious minded friends asked got me in trouble yesterday while asking the question - can you prove me where did numerical 1 came from? I said it always existed then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...

No you did not get "debunked".

Humans created language, that simple. Our advance language however does not mean no other species communicate. Even your pet dogs and pet cats bark or meow to tell you something. Elephants will puff out their ears and posture when threatened, that is also a form of communication.

EVOLUTION is what lead us to come up with our advanced language, but it does not make us special in the history of evolution over 4 billion years. Our advanced brains are only ONE attribute in evolution, but not the most important. Cockroaches outnumber humans and are far faster breeders, and have existed far longer. They too communicate by leaving scent trails and feel the vibrations of others. Bees dance to signal the finding of food.

Our planet has had 5 mass extinction events in it's 4 billion year history. Humans have only been around in our current form for a mere 200 to 300 thousand years and only 10,000 years ago did we evolve to invent written language.

The reasons for our more complex brains have nothing to do with fictional sky wizards and everything to do with our genes, environment and diet. EVOLUTION is why we came up with complex language.

"1" is an abstraction to denote something. "1 apple", "1 car" but those abstractions that form our observations form the math and science formulas that DO give us concrete answers that make up scientific fact.

POINT being, NO SKY WIZARD NEEDED, NO MAGIC NEEDED.

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07-01-2018, 08:56 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
“1” is an abstract concept, and as such doesn’t literally exist. It’s used as part of mathematics to help us model the physical world, among other things.

(You can say all abstract concepts exist in their own way; but they’ve never been observed to have any interaction with the physical world. The concept of “god” is just the same. It’s just much less useful than “1”. If “god” is supposed to reference something that exists further than just being a concept, that requires a formal definition and evidence.)

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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07-01-2018, 09:08 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
(06-01-2018 11:22 PM)jageh Wrote:  Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

I want your help about a question which puzzled me yesterday.. One of one religious minded friends asked got me in trouble yesterday while asking the question - can you prove me where did numerical 1 came from? I said it always existed then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...

Which god is he talking about ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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07-01-2018, 09:46 AM
RE: Need your help Guys
Even if it made any sense to say "1" always existed, it doesn't follow that some other random shit has also always existed. It would just open up the possibility that things may have always existed.

It's not been demonstrated yet that our (sub)reality hasn't always existed, so that can't be ruled out to be begin with. No extra step necessary, for now.

If you're talking about concepts existing in the Platonic sense, you could consider that all possible abstract concepts have always existed; or that they "come into existence" the first time some form of intelligence thinks about them. I'd say the former makes more sense. Either way, I don't argue that "God" exists in the same way other abstract concepts exist, but concepts haven't ever been shown to have any agency or power.

For example, me punching you in the face is a very real interaction within the physical world, but neither the concept of me punching you in the face, nor the concept of my first or your face has had any input. They are just ways of trying to understand the possible action.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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07-01-2018, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2018 05:20 PM by Cheerful Charlie.)
RE: Need your help Guys
(06-01-2018 11:22 PM)jageh Wrote:  Hi my name is Jegeh and i am new here....

I want your help about a question which puzzled me yesterday.. One of one religious minded friends asked got me in trouble yesterday while asking the question - can you prove me where did numerical 1 came from? I said it always existed then he said similarly god existed always... I got debunked. Need suggestions of atheists here...

Numbers like 1 et al are refered to by theologians, metaphysicians and the like as abstract objects (among other things).

This leads to theological concepts such as presuppositionalism and the transcendent argument for God. Nothing existed outside of God such as the metaphysical necessities, abstract arguments etc. It is a form of argument by definition. Of course if there is in fact, no God, then these things do in fact exist without a need for God. Which means naturalism is real.

Rene Descartes raised this issue in 1630 in his letters to Mersennes. He stated that God creates all the laws and rules of the Universe, including the laws of mathematics. Descartes was an orthodox Catholic and believed God was perfectly good.

The problem is then, why does moral evil exist? A perfectly good God that creates everything, including the metaphysical foundations of the world could easily given man a god-like free will and a god-like good nature such as god enjoys. Man of his own free will would never do moral evil. There could be no hidden reasons or hurdles to God having a perfect world with no moral evil. So TAG and presuppositionalism are incoherent and self defeating concepts. Moral evil is hard to explain if one holds to these ideas.

If God creates the idea of numbers, which you friend is saying, which is drawn from the idea that in the beginning there was only God and no outside natural world of abstract objects, and God is good as per revelation and definition, this leads to this logical reductio ad absurdum.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

Cheerful Charlie
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