Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
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15-05-2017, 08:46 AM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 08:40 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-05-2017 08:32 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm sensing the Buddhist 8 fold path is causing SW2 some grief since SW is asking about it. Could be that via conditioning, it's hard to completely kick it to the curb.

That's true. I'm just curious as to which part of the noble 8-fold path the OP is having issues with.

THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH

Right Understanding (Samma ditthi)
Right Thought (Samma sankappa)
Right Speech (Samma vaca)
Right Action (Samma kammanta)
Right Livelihood (Samma ajiva)
Right Effort (Samma vayama)
Right Mindfulness (Samma sati)
Right Concentration (Samma samadhi)

Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.
Shantih shantih shantih

I think some atheists feel they can't have (or don't want) any religious influence of any kind in their lives. But I can't speak for SW Tongue , so I think you make a good point in asking about it Thumbsup

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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15-05-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
I know some very smug Buddhists. (In fact, almost everyone who's told me they were Buddhist seemed at least a little smug about it.) It's fine to adopt any techniques of Buddhism that you find useful but also to stay away from Buddhists and to call yourself something else entirely.

A couple of my general problems with Buddhism as I understand it--which is not much--are detailed below. Maybe you'll find them useful, although they may be too uninformed.

I have problems with the nonattachment stuff. Sure, this is one way to deal with loss and impermanence, but it's not the only way and not necessarily the best way, either. What I guess you might need to do is go against the voice in your head that tells you you're acting in a shallow, low-class way. Hard to do at first, maybe easier as you go along.

I also believe meditation can be useful, but I don't really see the point of spending the amount of time meditating that many Buddhists seem to. Maybe because around my neck of the woods (New England) the Buddhists who spend two hours a day meditating have the money and leisure time to do it, and also they seem to look down on people who don't meditate--maybe it's just a coincidence that those people tend to have significantly less money and less free time because of their mundane jobs. but I don't think so..
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15-05-2017, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2017 01:18 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 09:43 AM)julep Wrote:  I know some very smug Buddhists. (In fact, almost everyone who's told me they were Buddhist seemed at least a little smug about it.) It's fine to adopt any techniques of Buddhism that you find useful but also to stay away from Buddhists and to call yourself something else entirely.

A couple of my general problems with Buddhism as I understand it--which is not much--are detailed below. Maybe you'll find them useful, although they may be too uninformed.

I have problems with the nonattachment stuff. Sure, this is one way to deal with loss and impermanence, but it's not the only way and not necessarily the best way, either. What I guess you might need to do is go against the voice in your head that tells you you're acting in a shallow, low-class way. Hard to do at first, maybe easier as you go along.

I also believe meditation can be useful, but I don't really see the point of spending the amount of time meditating that many Buddhists seem to. Maybe because around my neck of the woods (New England) the Buddhists who spend two hours a day meditating have the money and leisure time to do it, and also they seem to look down on people who don't meditate--maybe it's just a coincidence that those people tend to have significantly less money and less free time because of their mundane jobs. but I don't think so..

I meditate a lot (I've never done the two hour thing though Wink ), but I fit it into my schedule, so that could be just meditating for 5 minutes on some occasions. Typically, I meditate anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes a day. And I have done an hour if I have an upcoming stressful event. I find it calms my mind, it's like a vacation from the hectic bustle and constant barrage from the outside world.

I do take issue with people who say you *must* meditate for two hours every day. It turns people off to meditating right off the bat and it makes people think that's the only way to meditate, when really sometimes just disconnecting from outside stimulus for even 5 minutes can do the trick. Thumbsup

I think meditating can be like any hobby you have. For instance, I know bike riders who bike for two hours a day every day and work full-time jobs. I think it's all about how you like to spend any free time you have.

And back to the OP, regarding non-attachment...this is just one philosophy of life. Just one view of the world someone came up with (non-attachment is from the Yoga Sutras and was already a philosophy prior to Buddhism). There are many philosophies of life out there. You can also create your own philosophy of life or take from multiple thoughts on life to create your own personal world view.

We are wired through evolution to like attachment to things, groups, people. This is natural. So don't beat yourself up over it. Wink

From a yoga perspective, life is about cultivating balance. I guess my point is, "a modern approach" could be to enjoy attachments and give back to the world in some way through volunteering or paying it forward...that is, if you feel like you'd like to give back in some way in your life.

This is how I like to live my life and I do follow the 8 limbs of yoga (one of which is non-attachment). In Patanjali's 8 limbs, non-attachment means letting go of attachments, aversions, and fears that are clouding your true self. It means to only take what you need (as opposed to hoarding) and keep only what serves (this could mean getting rid of bad habits, stresses, fears, etc.) to make you your best self. It means to focus on the journey at hand and not to put all your emphasis solely on the end result.

I would also add that non-attachment is more about simplicity and not about being less shallow or living low class. The idea is the more stuff you have or *need* to accumulate in life can cause you to take focus off the more important things in life. It can also create a lot of output of unnecessary energy or static in your life. By simplifying your life with less things, there's less to worry about. Less to worry about equals less stress. Less stress equals happier existence.

Non-attachment in yoga is one tool designed to help you to live the best possible you. Again this is a philosophy of life, does that mean every one needs to follow it, no. Additionally part of the teaching is "Release what no longer serves." If it is no longer beneficial for you to be following a teaching because it's causing you stress or anxiety for whatever reason, then that means it's time to move on from it.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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15-05-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 09:43 AM)julep Wrote:  I have problems with the nonattachment stuff.

Attachment is the source of suffering, or so they say. Seems legit to me.

#sigh
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15-05-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 02:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Attachment is the source of suffering, or so they say. Seems legit to me.

GM,

I have been regularly attached to a drop of the good stuff for more than 50 years. On the whole, I would say that the pleasures have far outweighed the occasional hangover. Tonight its a Portuguese wine. Smile

The problem have with Buddhism is similar to Christianity et al. They say "You have a problem and I have the cure" How convenient. Wink

D.
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15-05-2017, 04:01 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 02:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-05-2017 09:43 AM)julep Wrote:  I have problems with the nonattachment stuff.

Attachment is the source of suffering, or so they say. Seems legit to me.

I understand that. I just don't agree with the position that seeking nonattachment is always--or even usually--the best way to deal with loss, impermanence, and suffering.
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15-05-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 04:01 PM)julep Wrote:  I just don't agree with the position that seeking nonattachment is always--or even usually--the best way to deal with loss, impermanence, and suffering.

Yeah, what exactly are you living for if you don't fight for certain "attachments"? Are you only interested in your own peace of mind? Perhaps such fatalism made more sense way back when people had so little power over the events in their lives.
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15-05-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 08:40 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH

Right Understanding (Samma ditthi)
Right Thought (Samma sankappa)
Right Speech (Samma vaca)
Right Action (Samma kammanta)
Right Livelihood (Samma ajiva)
Right Effort (Samma vayama)
Right Mindfulness (Samma sati)

I likely don't understand Buddhism at all, but doesn't all that just beg so many questions about what is "right"? Would anyone sensible embrace what was obviously wrong?
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15-05-2017, 04:12 PM
RE: Needing Help Overcoming Zen Buddhism
(15-05-2017 03:42 PM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(15-05-2017 02:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Attachment is the source of suffering, or so they say. Seems legit to me.

GM,

I have been regularly attached to a drop of the good stuff for more than 50 years. On the whole, I would say that the pleasures have far outweighed the occasional hangover. Tonight its a Portuguese wine. Smile

The problem have with Buddhism is similar to Christianity et al. They say "You have a problem and I have the cure" How convenient. Wink

D.

Yeah, I never bought into any bullshit and I'm to old to start now. I think that there are useful tidbits common to a lot of religions, and philosophies in general, which don't have to be ignored. Admittedly, they're usually lying in the center of a pile of shit so you gotta decide if it's worth it. If you didn't know the 8-fold path was associated with any religion what would you think? I would've thought it might be a samurai code? Sumo code? Some sorta warrior's creed.

#sigh
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