New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
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22-07-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 10:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:45 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  The debate about the existence of God can't begin if I as a theist don't deny God exists and it turns out as an 'atheist' you don't deny God exists either....what's there to debate?

The discussion can be about why you think so. I don't believe in the existence of any gods because there is no evidence of the existence of any gods.

Do you have any evidence?

Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief? Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?
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22-07-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 11:29 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  The discussion can be about why you think so. I don't believe in the existence of any gods because there is no evidence of the existence of any gods.

Do you have any evidence?

Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief? Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Evidence for a true conclusion is independently verifiable. Evidence for a conclusion that is only true in the imagination, has no evidence that transcends the individual imagination.

Or to put it another way, a theist being convinced a god is real because they've built a narrative around a concept in their imagination, has no bearing on reality unless that theist can demonstrate that it exists outside the imagination.

Rejecting a claim, is not a claim. If it were a claim, then there could never be any opinion or rejection of opinion that were not a claim. Hint: it is why it is called rejecting, because it isn't its own claim, it is dependent upon a claim in order to reject.

The universe is the result of abiotic process. Life is a process whereby sentience and consciousness emerges from chemistry and "mechanistic" processes. Science has shown us how these chemical and physical reactions and occurrences work.

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22-07-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 11:29 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  The discussion can be about why you think so. I don't believe in the existence of any gods because there is no evidence of the existence of any gods.

Do you have any evidence?

Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief?

That has to be the most absurd definition of evidence ever.

Quote:Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Evidence is objectively verifiable.

You are not very good at this. Not good at all.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-07-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:50 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  That is why we have opinions about such things. A belief is an opinion about a matter apart from conclusive evidence its true. Its not unreasonable to have an opinion regarding matters apart from conclusive proof. By the same token there is no way to investigate the claim or test the hypothesis we owe our existence to mindless mechanistic forces, is that an unreasonable claim as well?

It is not unreasonable as there are evidenced reasons to think so. Evolution is a mindless algorithm that is sufficient to explain the diversity of life.

If defined as change through descent evolution is a fact and can be used as evidence of your point of view (I don't deny there is evidence that favors atheism). However, I remain skeptical if evolution coupled with natural selection alone produces the variety of life we observe. Secondly its insufficient evidence to claim its a mindless algorithm all the way down so to speak.
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22-07-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 11:14 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Drewpaul - You're essentially asserting magic. We're unfamiliar with magic.

You can't walk into a room and say "Magic happened! You have to prove it didn't!" and expect people to take you seriously.

Only in the realm of religious claims are people brazen enough to say that the listener has the burden of proof.

The belief we owe the existence of the universe and sentient life to a Creator isn't a magical claim anymore than we owe the existence of a laptop as the result of design and engineering. What non-magical explanation do you offer for the existence of the universe and sentient life?
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22-07-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 12:15 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 11:14 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Drewpaul - You're essentially asserting magic. We're unfamiliar with magic.

You can't walk into a room and say "Magic happened! You have to prove it didn't!" and expect people to take you seriously.

Only in the realm of religious claims are people brazen enough to say that the listener has the burden of proof.

The belief we owe the existence of the universe and sentient life to a Creator isn't a magical claim anymore than we owe the existence of a laptop as the result of design and engineering. What non-magical explanation do you offer for the existence of the universe and sentient life?

The Big Bang and evolution

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22-07-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
Quote:Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief? Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Evidence for a true conclusion is independently verifiable. Evidence for a conclusion that is only true in the imagination, has no evidence that transcends the individual imagination.

Any evidence I submit in favor of theism are undeniable facts...

Or to put it another way, a theist being convinced a god is real because they've built a narrative around a concept in their imagination, has no bearing on reality unless that theist can demonstrate that it exists outside the imagination.

Granted...

Rejecting a claim, is not a claim. If it were a claim, then there could never be any opinion or rejection of opinion that were not a claim. Hint: it is why it is called rejecting, because it isn't its own claim, it is dependent upon a claim in order to reject.

It is a claim. If I claim someone was murdered and you reject that claim its because you are stating the victim wasn't murdered. If I claim we owe the existence of the universe to a Creator and you reject that claim, you are stating it wasn't a Creator who intentionally caused the universe. Its a goofy debating technique at best to pretend you have no opinion in this matter.

The universe is the result of abiotic process. Life is a process whereby sentience and consciousness emerges from chemistry and "mechanistic" processes. Science has shown us how these chemical and physical reactions and occurrences work.


I think even your fellow atheists will reject the notion the universe is the result of abiotic process...
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22-07-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 11:57 AM)drewpaul Wrote:  If defined as change through descent evolution is a fact and can be used as evidence of your point of view (I don't deny there is evidence that favors atheism).

Evidence for evolution is not evidence for atheism. Many theists accept evolution although they posit a magical start and often ongoing tinkering.

Atheism doesn't need evidence as it is a default position of not accepting the claim that a god exists until there is evidence for that claim.

Quote:However, I remain skeptical if evolution coupled with natural selection alone produces the variety of life we observe.

Your incredulity is not evidence and, given phrases like 'evolution coupled with natural selection', I suspect you have a somewhat distorted view of what current evolutionary theory is.

Quote:Secondly its insufficient evidence to claim its a mindless algorithm all the way down so to speak.

Everything we have investigated so far turned out to be the result of "mindless" processes. That provides a basis for extrapolation that future discoveries will fall into the same category. It may not be proof that there isn't a god behind it all, but the time to believe that is when you find evidence that actually supports that conclusion. Until such evidence is found, the rational thing to do is to continue investigating and withhold belief in things that have not been demonstrated.

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22-07-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
(22-07-2015 12:26 PM)drewpaul Wrote:  
Quote:Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief? Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Evidence for a true conclusion is independently verifiable. Evidence for a conclusion that is only true in the imagination, has no evidence that transcends the individual imagination.

Any evidence I submit in favor of theism are undeniable facts...

Or to put it another way, a theist being convinced a god is real because they've built a narrative around a concept in their imagination, has no bearing on reality unless that theist can demonstrate that it exists outside the imagination.

Granted...

Rejecting a claim, is not a claim. If it were a claim, then there could never be any opinion or rejection of opinion that were not a claim. Hint: it is why it is called rejecting, because it isn't its own claim, it is dependent upon a claim in order to reject.

It is a claim. If I claim someone was murdered and you reject that claim its because you are stating the victim wasn't murdered. If I claim we owe the existence of the universe to a Creator and you reject that claim, you are stating it wasn't a Creator who intentionally caused the universe. Its a goofy debating technique at best to pretend you have no opinion in this matter.

The universe is the result of abiotic process. Life is a process whereby sentience and consciousness emerges from chemistry and "mechanistic" processes. Science has shown us how these chemical and physical reactions and occurrences work.


I think even your fellow atheists will reject the notion the universe is the result of abiotic process...

"Any evidence I submit in favor of theism are undeniable facts..."

No. Only evidence that you submit that is externally true of your imagination, independently verifiable, and logically consistent with reality could be considered facts as they relate to reality. Otherwise they are facts about your imagination and imaginary friend.

"It is a claim. If I claim someone was murdered and you reject that claim its because you are stating the victim wasn't murdered. If I claim we owe the existence of the universe to a Creator and you reject that claim, you are stating it wasn't a Creator who intentionally caused the universe. Its a goofy debating technique at best to pretend you have no opinion in this matter. "

You are all kinds of wrong. You say someone was murdered, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. If all you have is a dead body, then all we can agree on is that the person is dead. I reject your claim of murder through lack of evidence. My rejection is of your claim, it can't be a claim in and of itself as it is dependent upon your claim.

"I think even your fellow atheists will reject the notion the universe is the result of abiotic process..."

And yet, science shows us how to describe the universe in such a way that it can indeed arise from natural, non-living processes.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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22-07-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: New Atheist Dukes it Out with Seasoned Pastor
Quote:Are you aware that evidence is merely facts that comport with a belief?

That has to be the most absurd definition of evidence ever.

Absurd or not, that's what it is. The way you substantiate a belief is to provide facts that comport or agree with such a belief. The type of evidence in favor of either our respective beliefs is circumstantial, evolution is a fact you offered that comports with your belief we owe our existence to mindless mechanistic forces. Did you think submitting that evidence was absurd?

Quote:Of course I can make a case from facts in support of my opinion. Let's be clear here though, regardless of why you reject belief in God or gods that is a claim in its own right, true? Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Do you also reject the claim (on the same basis) the universe and sentient life is the result of mindless mechanistic forces?

Do you?

Evidence is objectively verifiable.
You are not very good at this. Not good at all.



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